Beating a dead horse here, but great article nonetheless.

[kwame k]

Free? You sure about that chief?

...of course not, nothing is in play yet......hence, free/affordable tag.

So out of my entire post that's all you have?

[bueno bob]

...said the man after his long rant on the very subject.

Nice job dodging the whole thing.

You wanted INSIGHT from me on the subject, and I just gave it to you. Now you're whining about it?

[sadaist]

...of course not, nothing is in play yet......hence, free/affordable tag.

So out of my entire post that's all you have?

When your post starts of with ridiculous claims, it makes it difficult to take the rest of it seriously. The "free/affordable health care" is totally off base. Free and/or affordable for whom? The people who use it. I can guarantee you it will not be free to working Americans lucky enough to be making a decent salary. Affordable for them? Possibly. But there are only so many tax dollars you can take. At some point things do pass the "affordable" point.

Did government get bigger or smaller under Bush?

Bigger, but not even in the same ballpark as what President Obama’s vision is.

Did government spending increase or decrease under Bush?

Again, not even in the same universe as what Obama envisions.

How many innocent people died because of Bush?

If you really want to play that card, how many innocent people died due to President Clinton’s inaction? Or, how many more innocent people were not killed because of Bush’s actions?

The News a few weeks ago confirmed that the US government was spying and collecting information on thousands of law abiding citizens who had absolutely no ties to anti-government plots or terrorism. Done under Cheney's watchful eyes but no one has a problem with that.

And did these law abiding citizens end up on a White House black list and begin receiving emails from David Axelrod?

When questioned on that point by congress Halliburton basically said "we don't know where the money went"

Maybe they used the same accountants used by Obama’s "Cash For Clunkers" architects. The program that was scheduled to run through October and ran out of money in one week. Or any of his other programs that will require much more money than originally projected.

Yeah Obama has really fucked this country up. We were doing so great under Bush

What exactly has Obama done that can be claimed a triumph? Enough time has passed now that President Obama needs to begin being judged by what he has done and planning to do...and not what his predecessor did or did not do. The Democrats have full control of all branches of government and yet, haven't done anything with their power but play the blame game. Even their own are starting to speak up against particular ideas only to be quickly admonished, cast away, and labeled "Blue Dogs".

[sadaist]

Nice job dodging the whole thing.

You wanted INSIGHT from me on the subject, and I just gave it to you. Now you're whining about it?

Whining? Screaming through your keyboard is insightful to you? Six exclamations, 17 words in all caps, and 13 offensive words is how you make your point? Shows a high level of intellect if not just frustration with knowing the difficulties you face backing up your statements.

FUCKING PLEASE. Racism is what it is and there's absolutely no disguising it.

The "everyone who disagrees with Obama is racist" is as ridiculous as the "everyone who disagrees with Bush is un-American" was.

Rather than yell "racist" at everyone who disagrees, why not instead post all of the terrific things Obama has done/doing and what their benefits to everyone are? Educate us point by point. That is what you demanded from Bush supporters. Why when the coin is flipped do you not see this? It is scary for you I'm sure, because everything that you will claim Obama will do that is wonderful, will be shot down by the truth of the sheer costs involved and the impossibilities of achieving these goals without driving this country further into the ground than you can wrap your mind around.

Oh, I suppose you will retort "Bush supporters didn't back up anything". But that shouldn't preclude you from backing your guy now. The "but Bush, but Bush" is getting old. We have a pretty decent stretch now of Obama being in office. Enough time at least for him to show this magnificent change & redirection/healing of the country. So far all I've seen is hope. The hope that he will stop spending money he does not have. The hope that the wealthy will finally get what's coming to them. The hope that a handout is in the mail. The hope that the government doesn't get their hands into controlling everything or the hope that the government will take care of us.

[bueno bob]

Whining? Screaming through your keyboard is insightful to you? Six exclamations, 17 words in all caps, and 13 offensive words is how you make your point?

Should I have wrapped it up in prettier words for you? Jesus Christ, really.

Still dodging, I see.

Shows a high level of intellect if not just frustration with knowing the difficulties you face backing up your statements.

Most of it strikes me as common sense.

The "everyone who disagrees with Obama is racist" is as ridiculous as the "everyone who disagrees with Bush is un-American" was.

Yeah, and?

I never said it wasn't. But the fact that Republicans are trying to wrap it up in "Oh, we're being painted as racists, but America's seeing through it! We're winning!" is GLORIFIED BULLSHIT.

Rather than yell "racist" at everyone who disagrees, why not instead post all of the terrific things Obama has done/doing and what their benefits to everyone are?

Um, because I've already done that? I'll call racism where I see it, I don't need to have what it is or isn't clarified to me, especially not by you.

Educate us point by point. That is what you demanded from Bush supporters.

I didn't demand anything from Bush supporters. I knew exactly why they were supporting him and that demanding any sort of sensible reason was a lost cause.

Why when the coin is flipped do you not see this?

Gee, it's funny. I seem to remember a "This is America! Love it or leave it!" mentality when all the Bush supporters were in power. Why is it when the coin is flipped all of a sudden it doesn't work for you anymore?

It is scary for you I'm sure, because everything that you will claim Obama will do that is wonderful, will be shot down by the truth of the sheer costs involved and the impossibilities of achieving these goals without driving this country further into the ground than you can wrap your mind around.

LMAO. "Scary", hunh? I know what sheer fucking terror is, and I see it demonstrated every time I turn on Fox News and listen to any of the birthers and socialism pushers. They demonstrate their growing level of horror pretty effectively all on their own.

OOOOH, evil socialism!

OOOOH, birth certificates!

OOOOH, he hates white people!

Yeah, I don't think I need you to tell me what "scared" is.

Oh, I suppose you will retort "Bush supporters didn't back up anything".

They didn't, other than with a fucking bible. I use the same backup to wipe my ass daily.

But that shouldn't preclude you from backing your guy now.

Never has, genius. You paid attention to anything I've posted since 2006 about Obama?

Probably not, but the point remains...

The "but Bush, but Bush" is getting old.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure it is. I'm sure Republicans would just LOVE to sweep all of the damning evidence against Bush and his criminal presidency under the carpet under the guise of "Oh, come on, it's getting old...blah blah blah..."

With any luck, it won't be that easy for you.

We have a pretty decent stretch now of Obama being in office.

LMAO

7 months? Um, OK. Even I gave Bush benefit of the doubt for four years. Bad choice on my part, but live and learn. Most Republicans have been pissing in their pants since election day. Or before.

Enough time at least for him to show this magnificent change & redirection/healing of the country. So far all I've seen is hope.

Odd. Looks to me like he's been a pretty fucking busy President since day one. Of course, your side of the fence has been doing absolutely boo shit to help and have even LOWERED yourselves to actually contributing to derail any and all efforts at bipartisan work.

Been listening to your Fox News, I see.

The hope that he will stop spending money he does not have.

Were you bitching about it when Bush was spending shitloads of cash per day in Iraq that we didn't have? Oh no...that was a holy fucking mandate, I forgot...

Here we are trying to spend it at home in the hopes that it'll reinvigorate this economy that's been fucked by Republican mismanagement and corporate greed at the highest levels to be found in this country, and DO SOMETHING for American citizens and businesses, and NOW you wanna bitch about financial conservation? Lovely.

Fox News talking points. Empty and vapid. And luckily enough, the MINORITY.

[hideyoursheep]

I tend not to take my political advice from a man who was born in Kentucky and super-glues a models' labia to her leg for a "better shot".

Sorry.


No, I'm not.

[sadaist]

Odd. Looks to me like he's been a pretty fucking busy President since day one. Of course, your side of the fence has been doing absolutely boo shit to help and have even LOWERED yourselves to actually contributing to derail any and all efforts at bipartisan work.

And accomplished exactly what? Why does Obama need bipartisan support to pass his agenda? The Democrats have full control, yet are inept with it.

Been listening to your Fox News, I see.

No. Shepard Smith maybe twice a month.

every time I turn on Fox News

Wait, you just chastised me for assuming I watch it, and you're the one that's watching? Do as I say, not as I do mentality. Let me guess, you're way too smart to be swayed by anything on that network and watch it simply for laughs.

But the fact that Republicans are trying to wrap it up in "Oh, we're being painted as racists, but America's seeing through it! We're winning!" is GLORIFIED BULLSHIT...
I'll call racism where I see it

So they either are racists, and they should be rightly labeled as such.

or

they are not racists and you're using the "glorified bullshit" as a crutch for your weak arguments.

So are they or aren't they being wrongly tagged as racist? Easy question considering you & others at this site claim to be able to spot it a mile away.

I think you believe they are all racists, but are flat out scared to come out and just admit to it. Insinuations, small little tidbit comments here & there, eluding to it in your statements. It's a whole lot easier to tip toe around the subject crying about how they are whining about being called that the whole time rather than sack up and flat out say "they are all racists".

I seem to remember a "This is America! Love it or leave it!"

I do recall many high profile liberals stating they would move out of the country if Bush were elected for a second term. Unfortunately none made good on their promises.

Were you bitching about it when Bush was spending shitloads of cash per day in Iraq that we didn't have?

I was "bitching" that not enough money was going where it was needed most. That the troops on the ground did not have sufficient equipment nor funds to purchase that equipment. I do remember Democrats continuous attempts at stopping the funding as well. I'm sure you remember, it was in the days of the news-ticker style daily count of deaths in the war. Since Obama has been elected, soldiers have still died over there. Where is the daily count/tally now? Or do their deaths not mean as much because Democrats can't use them for political gain?

OOOOH, evil socialism!

No one claims Obama has a magic socialism button or is going to suddenly pass a "We're switching to Socialism" bill, but his ideas, agenda, and things he has done already are traveling down that road. If we do not want to be a socialist country, at what point do we finally draw the line? When do we say "OK government...we think we're close enough now. Time to stop & hold the status quo"?

OOOOH, he hates white people!

Funny, I remember the exact thing being said about Bush hating black people. Katrina ring a bell?

Here we are trying to spend it at home in the hopes that it'll reinvigorate this economy that's been fucked by Republican mismanagement and DO SOMETHING for American citizens and businesses

Well, you got me there. Raising the deficit to unprecedented levels, spending billions of dollars on pork projects and greased palms, taxing businesses and citizens dry, leaving a massive debt for future generations, and allowing the government to get their hands in every aspect of our lives is DOING SOMETHING.

[Dr. Love]

The banks don't have any power that we (as a people) don't give them. About 2 years ago when this shit started to go down, I decided I didn't want to belong to a credit society. I paid off all my credit cards. I paid all my loans, except my car loan and my student loan, and I started saving a significant amount of money every month from not having to make all those additional payments. I turned around and paid off 1 of my 2 student loans.

This year I'll pay off the other (25 years ahead of schedule) or pay off my car (3 years ahead of schedule). Next year I'll pay off the other. Additionally, I've taken a european vacation, bought a new entertainment center and new king sized bed + mattress -- all with cash. I don't buy anything unless I have the cash to buy it. I save up. The anticipation and planning actually makes the end result of my purchase more satisfying instead of charging it to a card and wondering how I'm going to pay yet another bill. My credit score has soared from paying down all my debts and closing the accounts I previously had.

That doesn't really matter to me. I don't plan on buying anything on credit. Not a car. Not a house. Nothing. When my girlfriend and I get married, her entire income will be diverted to savings; I already make enough to support us both and still be able to save 1/3 of my own income already based on not being under a mountain of credit card bills.

If you don't want a bank to control your immediate life, don't sign up to be their slaves. If you don't want the banks to control our society, then a lot of us have to change how we run our own lives. It's not hard. It just takes dedication and discipline, not revolution.

For a lot of people in this country, it's a lot easier to strap a gun to their hip and try to make some asinine point that they are defending themselves than it is to clean up their own lives and lead by example. What a shame.

And if Obama is owned by the banks, why did they cram through the credit card reform that was supposed to help so many? Or is that some sort of Trojan horse to you guys?

[jhale667]

Nice try.

Funny, I remember the exact thing being said about Bush hating black people. Katrina ring a bell?

Yeah, it does...and how is it a relevant comparison in the first fucking place? Has there been any comparable disaster in a predominantly white area of a city that Obama has fucked off on for over three days while people drowned? Didn't think so, so STFU with that one...

[bueno bob]

And accomplished exactly what?

Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act into law, 1/29/09

Signed the Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act, 2/4/09, which continued coverage for 7 million children and extended coverage to 4 million more

Signed the DTV Delay Act into law, 2/11/09, to give Americans more time to make the transition from analog to digital television

Signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act into law, 2/17/09

Named White House aides on urban affairs, investing billions of dollars in programs benefiting urban areas “where 80% of the American people live and work.”

Supported the market while trimming excesses...

Re-established some of our credibility overseas...

Introduced initiatives for treatment of Guantanamo detainees to equal pay for women to high speed railway plans....

Working to introduce jobs in renewable energy that will relieve us of our dependence on foreign oil by 2020...

National security? We're still not being attacked...

I can go on and on, but trust me, he's been pretty busy.

Why does Obama need bipartisan support to pass his agenda? The Democrats have full control, yet are inept with it.

This is true. But the original point was this, since you seem to have missed it - he went to Republicans in a bi-partisan effort to work on numerous problems facing the country and was met with a closed fist every time. Did you forget that that was what I said? Perhaps you should engage in the use of your scroll feature on the right hand side of your computer so that you can keep involved with the discussion and keep things in context here.

As far as other Democrats are concerned, I can name you quite a few that I'm not exactly happy with...oh wait! I already have in numerous other posts. Have you not read them?

No. Shepard Smith maybe twice a month.

Funny, considering you seem to recite most of their rhetoric like an old pro. In any regards, it's still baseless.

Wait, you just chastised me for assuming I watch it, and you're the one that's watching? Do as I say, not as I do mentality. Let me guess, you're way too smart to be swayed by anything on that network and watch it simply for laughs.

Basically, yeah. It's obviously a work of fiction, which is exactly what I've been saying for, oh, the last eight years or so. I like to know how the other half thinks and what the guns 'n' bibles mentality, uh, takes as gospel. And they do take Fox News as gospel. I know. I've seen it in action.

So they either are racists, and they should be rightly labeled as such. or they are not racists and you're using the "glorified bullshit" as a crutch for your weak arguments.

LMAO.

Let me spell it out for you...AGAIN...in plain English: 1) I know what racism is; 2) I don't need you to tell me what it isn't.

Do you have a hard time with that concept?

Do NOT sit there and tell me you're being portrayed as a racist but you're "winning". I'm simply too fucking smart for that. And I think most people are.

So are they or aren't they being wrongly tagged as racist? Easy question considering you & others at this site claim to be able to spot it a mile away.

See above. It's not a difficult thing to follow here.

I think you believe they are all racists, but are flat out scared to come out and just admit to it.

Again...FUCKING PLEASE. Who are you trying to convince with that?

Insinuations, small little tidbit comments here & there, eluding to it in your statements.

LMAO! Really?

Show me proof.

It's a whole lot easier to tip toe around the subject crying about how they are whining about being called that the whole time rather than sack up and flat out say "they are all racists".

Jesus Christ, your leaps of logic are astonishing. Are you from Krypton? Must be the way they defy gravity.

I do recall many high profile liberals stating they would move out of the country if Bush were elected for a second term. Unfortunately none made good on their promises.

True. Did you actually have a point with that, or...?

Personally, I don't give much of a shit whether the Baldwins live here or abroad, frankly. It's, um, irrelevant.

I was "bitching" that not enough money was going where it was needed most. That the troops on the ground did not have sufficient equipment nor funds to purchase that equipment.

THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE FUCKING BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

I do remember Democrats continuous attempts at stopping the funding as well.

Well, cutting off the flow of cash would certainly go a long way to derail a war. Or so one would think. Guess Bush thought otherwise, considering he kept them over there. Who do you think that shows has less consideration for our troops?

In any regards, their not having proper equipment was bullshit and all involved with the lack of that equipment should be held accountable.

Since Obama has been elected, soldiers have still died over there. Where is the daily count/tally now? Or do their deaths not mean as much because Democrats can't use them for political gain?

Oh yeah, deaths don't mean as much now. Yeah, that's it. Well, let me say this about that...if that's the way you figure people feel about it, you're really fucked in the head and have deeper problems than I can address.

As far as Iraq is concerned, ensuring their continued security has been our responsibility since we illegally invaded them. I said as much during Bush's reign of terror. We owe them that much. On the plus side, Obama does in fact have an exit strategy by August 31st, 2010, something his inept predecessor did not (and visibly had no interest in).

No one claims Obama has a magic socialism button or is going to suddenly pass a "We're switching to Socialism" bill, but his ideas, agenda, and things he has done already are traveling down that road.

I disagree. I see nothing to back that up, either.

If we do not want to be a socialist country, at what point do we finally draw the line? When do we say "OK government...we think we're close enough now. Time to stop & hold the status quo"?

"Status quo" is what got us into this fucking mess in the first place.

Funny, I remember the exact thing being said about Bush hating black people. Katrina ring a bell?

Did you see me saying it? If not, you have no point. Additionally, the whole Katrina affair was just mismanaged, period; and the outcry of "Bush hates blacks" was the result of a natural disaster which hit a very distinctive percentage of people; the whole "Obama hates whites!" comes from the talking heads at Fox News and specifically Glenn Beck. You tell me what's worse.

Well, you got me there. Raising the deficit to unprecedented levels,

Necessary, and being invested in American interests as a way of stopping the country from imploding. Thank your BCE, trickle nowhere economics and the highest levels of corporate greed in this country for that being a necessity.

Let's see. I know it's been used before, I think maybe Lounge used it?

The forest is on fire. The fire department shows up. They start trying to put out the fire and all of a sudden a portion of the campers are bitching about water conservation.

Beautiful logic!

Spending billions of dollars on pork projects and greased palms,

I love the word "pork". "Pork" essentially translates into "He's spending money and I guess I don't like it because it's not going to me". And thus goes the rest of your 'financial argument'.

[ZahZoo]

I don't give a damn who started what in this economic crap...

I don't give a damn who's black or white or green or yellow...

But I do want the federal government to do the jopb they are paid to do. Especially in the regulatory and justice departments. There's a ton of fraud that's gone on specific to the mortgage industry... I suspect a good part of it is still going on. That crap needs to be halted. Same thing with Wall St...

If we don't fix anything so that this crap stops and doesn't happen again... you can't expect anything to improve. Start shutting down the banks, the mortgage companies and probably the best starting point is the companies giving triple AAA credit ratings to banks sitting on toxic debt.

Only until some house cleaning occurs will the markets and economy start to rebuild.

[Kristy]

If we don't fix anything so that this crap stops and doesn't happen again... you can't expect anything to improve. Start shutting down the banks, the mortgage companies and probably the best starting point is the companies giving triple AAA credit ratings to banks sitting on toxic debt.

Only until some house cleaning occurs will the markets and economy start to rebuild.

That's all well and good in theory Zoo but our banks and their creepy cousin the mortgage industry are like an infected tooth of corruption that if you pull it what good does it do when the infection has already spread throughout the rest of the body? The true function of the government is in the minority in that you have large corporations, special focus groups, and lobbyists all influencing and thus eventually making the laws that benefit them and their aims while fucking the tax payer over & over who bail out their mistakes.

To stand up and simply say "enough is enough" is more cliche t-shirt slogan than revolution in these days; in fact, if there was a "enough is enough" so-called grass roots movement (in the same manner as that retarded tea baggers nonsense) it would most likely end up being sponsored by Coke-a-Cola, Geico, and Merk Pharmaceuticals. And I'm not being at all cynical here - that actually would happen.

[ZahZoo]

That's all well and good in theory Zoo but our banks and their creepy cousin the mortgage industry are like an infected tooth of corruption that if you pull it what good does it do when the infection has already spread throughout the rest of the body? The true function of the government is in the minority in that you have large corporations, special focus groups, and lobbyists all influencing and thus eventually making the laws that benefit them and their aims while fucking the tax payer over & over who bail out their mistakes.

To stand up and simply say "enough is enough" is more cliche t-shirt slogan than revolution in these days; in fact, if there was a "enough is enough" so-called grass roots movement (in the same manner as that retarded tea baggers nonsense) it would most likely end up being sponsored by Coke-a-Cola, Geico, and Merk Pharmaceuticals. And I'm not being at all cynical here - that actually would happen.

You missed a key point I made... present day regulatory and justice departments need to start doing their current damn jobs.

For example... Federal Housing Finance Agency need to be actively reviewing loan activities within Fannie Mae, Fannie Mac and all Federal Home Loan Banks. For every case of fraud found putting people in loans they can't afford... shuffle that case over to the FBI for prosecution.

SEC should be aggressively going after the companies that have regulatory oversight over the outfits that provide credit ratings for financial companies. Review their loan portfolios and if there are signs that these companies have given inappropriate ratings... shut them down immediately and send the case over to the justice department for prosecution.

I'm not advocating any sort of t-shirt slogan crap. I'm advocating that our federal government get off their lazy asses and do what they are being paid to do today. Don't need any new laws or legislation... just get to work. If they can't fire or impeach whoever is the top leader and get someone who can motivate these people to work their asses off.

Go research the Savings and Loan debacle... see how the feds cleaned up that mess and sent a lot of these white collar criminals to jail... along with some of their own government employees who were part of the fraud. Go view the video Igosplut posted in this forum... here http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/front...al-crisis.html

That guy knows what he's talking about and isn't some crackpot with a half assed plan.

[Hardrock69]

Too bad the last president we had who had enough balls to tell the Fed they could no longer run the United States economy got him a brand-spanking new air-conditioned brainpan, courtesy of our local CIA:

[Kristy]

I'm not advocating any sort of t-shirt slogan crap. I'm advocating that our federal government get off their lazy asses and do what they are being paid to do today. Don't need any new laws or legislation... just get to work. If they can't fire or impeach whoever is the top leader and get someone who can motivate these people to work their asses off.

I didn't miss your point, just that there is too much outside influence on our current government to make a difference anymore. Maybe I am too cynical.