AP publishes photo of Marine fatally wounded in battle

[hideyoursheep]

I honestly don't understand the parents' point of view of not wanting the picture public.

The guy was 21. He signed up voluntarily. He was aware of the risks. The risks are real. The picture clearly points that out. It was in no way disrespectful.

We have no idea of just how many photos we've all seen over the years that included wounded troops that died later on. Would it have made a difference if it were in black and white?
Is anyone familiar with the old custom of post-mortem pictures? That to me is more disturbing than capturing the moment someone is wounded in battle.

A picture really is worth a thousand words. There is no printed article that can bring you any closer to the hell on earth that combat is. It isn't glamorous.

I can't speak for his folks, or even my own if something would have happened to me, but if it were left up to me, personally, I wouldn't give a shit. Make T-shirts for all I care. But like I said, that's just me.

If it were my son, I'd have a hard time viewing it, and I wouldn't mind the picture being used, so long as I was notified of his vital status beforehand.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time looking at this one.

But it NEEDS to be out there. The shit is REAL.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I honestly don't understand the parents' point of view of not wanting the picture public.

The guy was 21. He signed up voluntarily. He was aware of the risks. The risks are real. The picture clearly points that out. It was in no way disrespectful.

We have no idea of just how many photos we've all seen over the years that included wounded troops that died later on. Would it have made a difference if it were in black and white?
Is anyone familiar with the old custom of post-mortem pictures? That to me is more disturbing than capturing the moment someone is wounded in battle.

A picture really is worth a thousand words. There is no printed article that can bring you any closer to the hell on earth that combat is. It isn't glamorous.

I can't speak for his folks, or even my own if something would have happened to me, but if it were left up to me, personally, I wouldn't give a shit. Make T-shirts for all I care. But like I said, that's just me.

If it were my son, I'd have a hard time viewing it, and I wouldn't mind the picture being used, so long as I was notified of his vital status beforehand.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time looking at this one.

But it NEEDS to be out there. The shit is REAL.

The parental point of view is what I keep coming back to though...

As the father of two boys, one of which is old enough to be considering joining the military, it would be devastating enough to get contacted that he was killed in combat...

But then if I was to see that, or I guess even moreso his mother, I dunno, it would just tear me apart....

[Seshmeister]

Show some pics like this to the kid that's considering joining the military and it may solve the problem.

[Nickdfresh]

If we're going to be technical, he was an "American"... but I totally got the gist of what Jhale was referencing. He was one of ours.

Well goodie. My "point" was that marines don't typically like being referred to as "soldiers" since they are marines. Soldiers are in the Army, and marines are in the Marine Corp. Airmen are in the Air Force, and sailors are in the Navy...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

It's "Marines" and "Sailors" and "Soldiers" and "Airmen"....

But yeah, the media fucks that up all the time, drives me nuts...

[Guitar Shark]

I love how Brett keeps saying he doesn't allow a "political forum," yet half the threads in the "Non" over there are GOP bitch sessions...

There is a distinct conservative majority over there, mods and non-mods alike. I've found that they are pretty intolerant of opposing viewpoints.

[binnie]

As for the thread, what's the difference between this photo and pics from say WWII showing wounded and even dead Allied soldiers?

.

I think that the difference is distance. If the photo was published 20, 30, 40 years from now then the pain felt by his family by his loss wouldn't have been so acute.

Personally, I think it was disrespectful of the family to publish it. I can see the validity of the view that such a blunt representation provides a 'reality check' for those who view it, but it seems to me that a society which needs reminding that war is horrible is beyond the help that any pictorial reality check can provide.

21 - what a sad end.

This isn't intended as an attack on your post Nick, just a contribution to the debate.

[bantonelli]

Well goodie. My "point" was that marines don't typically like being referred to as "soldiers" since they are marines. Soldiers are in the Army, and marines are in the Marine Corp. Airmen are in the Air Force, and sailors are in the Navy...

Thanks for the correction, Nick.

[hideyoursheep]

Nice touch on the edit Nick.

I like this one better..

[Nickdfresh]

LMFAO!!

[Nickdfresh]

[/Fallen Marine's father wants change
John Bernard has been critical of the rules of engagement in Afghanistan
The Associated Press
updated 3:40 p.m. ET, Tues., Oct . 13, 2009

NEW PORTLAND, Maine - It was the last way John Bernard would have wanted his voice to gain prominence in the national debate over the war in Afghanistan.

The retired Marine had been writing to lawmakers for weeks complaining of the new rules of engagement he believed put U.S. troops at unacceptable risk in the insurgency-wracked country. He got little response.

Then Bernard's only son, 21-year-old Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard — a Marine like his dad — was killed in an insurgent ambush in Afghanistan's volatile Helmand province, the latest victim of a surge in U.S. combat deaths.

Three weeks later, Joshua became the face of that toll when The Associated Press published photos of the dying Marine against his father's wishes and John Bernard was thrust into a national debate about the role of the press in wartime.

Suddenly, for all the worst reasons, John Bernard's voice was being heard.

New resonance to his view
The loss of his son and the furor over the photo have given new resonance to his view that changes must be made in how the war is fought before President Barack Obama sends any more troops to battle the Taliban and al-Qaida.

"For better or for worse, I may be the face of this. That's fine," said Bernard, sitting on his porch as he drank coffee from a Marine Corps mug. "As soon as someone bigger can run with it, they can have the whole thing."

Bernard's criticism is aimed at new rules of engagement imposed by Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the senior American commander in Afghanistan, five weeks before Joshua Bernard was killed. They limit the use of airstrikes and require troops to break off combat when civilians are present, even if it means letting the enemy escape. They also call for greater cooperation with the Afghan National Army.

Under those rules, John Bernard said, Marines and soldiers are being denied artillery and air support for fear of killing civilians, and the Taliban is using that to its tactical advantage. In a letter to his congressman and Maine's U.S. senators, Bernard condemned "the insanity of the current situation and the suicidal position this administration has placed these warriors in."

"We've abandoned them in this Catch-22 where we're supposed to defend the population, but we can't defend them because we can't engage the enemy that is supposed to be the problem," he said in an interview with the AP.

The military says the new rules, while riskier in the short run, will ultimately mean fewer casualties.

Before Joshua died, his father lived quietly as a professional carpenter and church volunteer.

Son hit by grenade
That changed on Aug. 14, when Joshua was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade while acting as point man for his squad in the town of Dahaneh. He died that night on the operating table.

On Sept. 4, the AP distributed a photo of the mortally wounded Marine being tended to by comrades. Many newspapers opted against using the photo, and the distribution launched a fierce public debate, especially after Defense Secretary Robert Gates publicly criticized the AP.

John Bernard still believes the AP's decision to release the photo — to show the horror of war and the sacrifice of those fighting it — was inexcusable, but he says the bigger issue is how the war is being conducted.

As he sees it, the U.S. was right to go to war in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but eight years later the focus has shifted to counterinsurgency instead of hunting down the enemy. Marines are trained to "kill people and break things," not to be police officers and nation-builders, he says.

The Taliban "are tenacious and you have to fight them with the same level of tenacity," Bernard said. "If you're going to try to go over there as a peacekeeper, you're going to get your butt handed to you, and that's what's going on right now."

Bernard also disagrees with U.S. troops working side by side with Afghan soldiers and police. The mission on which his son was killed was compromised by someone who tipped off the Taliban, he says, citing gunfire from all directions that targeted the Marines' helicopter when it landed. Bernard believes the Marines were led into a trap.

Writes a blog to share views
Bernard writes a blog sharing his views with others.

"I don't think John changed because his son died," his pastor, the Rev. Valmore Vigue, said. "He was committed to this cause because he believed it was right, and that's why he's doing it."

It's been a little more than a month since Joshua was buried in a small cemetery about five miles from their 1865 farmhouse in the rolling hills of western Maine, where the leaves of maples, oak, birch and poplars are turning fiery red, orange and yellow.

Bernard has accepted the loss, but his grief is obvious. He pauses from time to time to take deep breaths as he speaks of his son. Several times, he closes his eyes, as if remembering.

Bernard, 55, joined the Marines in 1972 and served 26 years on active and reserve duty, leading a platoon as a scout sniper in the first Gulf War in 1991. Physically fit, with closely cropped hair and a Marine Corps tattoo on his arm, the retired first sergeant remains a competitive shooter.

He and his wife, Sharon, raised Joshua and their daughter, Katie, 25, in New Portland, population 800. The family attended Crossroads Bible Church in nearby Madison.

Father and son shared the same philosophy: service to God, family, country and Marines — in that order, Bernard said.

Joshua was quiet, polite and determined. He led a Bible study in Afghanistan and earned the call sign "Holy Man." He also was a crack shot — best in his company, his father said.

Request denied for artillery fire support
Bernard says the battle that claimed Joshua's life was just one example of all that's wrong in Afghanistan.

When four Marines were killed in another ambush, near the Pakistan border, a McClatchy Newspapers reporter embedded with the unit wrote that its request for artillery fire support was declined because of the rules of engagement. The reporter quoted Marines as saying women and children were replenishing the insurgents' ammunition.

In another recent incident, an Afghan police officer on patrol with U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Americans, killing two of them. The assailant managed to escape.

The solution isn't that complicated, Bernard said. He wants the U.S. military to return to its original mission of chasing and killing the Taliban and al-Qaida. Otherwise, he said, bring the troops home.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, raised Bernard's concerns to Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, during an Armed Services Committee meeting last month.

"Getting this right in the long run will actually result in fewer casualties," Mullen said, according to a transcript of the hearing. "That doesn't mean risk isn't up higher now, given the challenges we have and the direction that McChrystal has laid out."

Rep. Mike Michaud, D-Maine, also raised Bernard's concerns in a letter to Gates, requesting that someone from the Pentagon chief's office formally contact Bernard. So far, no one has.

As a retired Marine, Bernard said he's obligated to speak up. His son is now gone, but he said others are still at risk.

"We've got guys in harm's way getting shot at and getting killed," he said. "To me, it's immoral that anybody in this country wouldn't have that first and last on their minds."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP

[Va Beach VH Fan]

He's absolutely right, the mission has changed dramatically in the 8 years they've been there....

[Seshmeister]

I can't understand his argument that not killing indiscriminately is somehow immoral.

Then again I don't really get the shooting people in the head for Jesus thing either...

[BITEYOASS]

[/Fallen Marine's father wants change
John Bernard has been critical of the rules of engagement in Afghanistan
The Associated Press
updated 3:40 p.m. ET, Tues., Oct . 13, 2009

NEW PORTLAND, Maine - It was the last way John Bernard would have wanted his voice to gain prominence in the national debate over the war in Afghanistan.

The retired Marine had been writing to lawmakers for weeks complaining of the new rules of engagement he believed put U.S. troops at unacceptable risk in the insurgency-wracked country. He got little response.

Then Bernard's only son, 21-year-old Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard — a Marine like his dad — was killed in an insurgent ambush in Afghanistan's volatile Helmand province, the latest victim of a surge in U.S. combat deaths.

Three weeks later, Joshua became the face of that toll when The Associated Press published photos of the dying Marine against his father's wishes and John Bernard was thrust into a national debate about the role of the press in wartime.

Suddenly, for all the worst reasons, John Bernard's voice was being heard.

New resonance to his view
The loss of his son and the furor over the photo have given new resonance to his view that changes must be made in how the war is fought before President Barack Obama sends any more troops to battle the Taliban and al-Qaida.

"For better or for worse, I may be the face of this. That's fine," said Bernard, sitting on his porch as he drank coffee from a Marine Corps mug. "As soon as someone bigger can run with it, they can have the whole thing."

Bernard's criticism is aimed at new rules of engagement imposed by Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the senior American commander in Afghanistan, five weeks before Joshua Bernard was killed. They limit the use of airstrikes and require troops to break off combat when civilians are present, even if it means letting the enemy escape. They also call for greater cooperation with the Afghan National Army.

Under those rules, John Bernard said, Marines and soldiers are being denied artillery and air support for fear of killing civilians, and the Taliban is using that to its tactical advantage. In a letter to his congressman and Maine's U.S. senators, Bernard condemned "the insanity of the current situation and the suicidal position this administration has placed these warriors in."

"We've abandoned them in this Catch-22 where we're supposed to defend the population, but we can't defend them because we can't engage the enemy that is supposed to be the problem," he said in an interview with the AP.

The military says the new rules, while riskier in the short run, will ultimately mean fewer casualties.

Before Joshua died, his father lived quietly as a professional carpenter and church volunteer.

Son hit by grenade
That changed on Aug. 14, when Joshua was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade while acting as point man for his squad in the town of Dahaneh. He died that night on the operating table.

On Sept. 4, the AP distributed a photo of the mortally wounded Marine being tended to by comrades. Many newspapers opted against using the photo, and the distribution launched a fierce public debate, especially after Defense Secretary Robert Gates publicly criticized the AP.

John Bernard still believes the AP's decision to release the photo — to show the horror of war and the sacrifice of those fighting it — was inexcusable, but he says the bigger issue is how the war is being conducted.

As he sees it, the U.S. was right to go to war in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but eight years later the focus has shifted to counterinsurgency instead of hunting down the enemy. Marines are trained to "kill people and break things," not to be police officers and nation-builders, he says.

The Taliban "are tenacious and you have to fight them with the same level of tenacity," Bernard said. "If you're going to try to go over there as a peacekeeper, you're going to get your butt handed to you, and that's what's going on right now."

Bernard also disagrees with U.S. troops working side by side with Afghan soldiers and police. The mission on which his son was killed was compromised by someone who tipped off the Taliban, he says, citing gunfire from all directions that targeted the Marines' helicopter when it landed. Bernard believes the Marines were led into a trap.

Writes a blog to share views
Bernard writes a blog sharing his views with others.

"I don't think John changed because his son died," his pastor, the Rev. Valmore Vigue, said. "He was committed to this cause because he believed it was right, and that's why he's doing it."

It's been a little more than a month since Joshua was buried in a small cemetery about five miles from their 1865 farmhouse in the rolling hills of western Maine, where the leaves of maples, oak, birch and poplars are turning fiery red, orange and yellow.

Bernard has accepted the loss, but his grief is obvious. He pauses from time to time to take deep breaths as he speaks of his son. Several times, he closes his eyes, as if remembering.

Bernard, 55, joined the Marines in 1972 and served 26 years on active and reserve duty, leading a platoon as a scout sniper in the first Gulf War in 1991. Physically fit, with closely cropped hair and a Marine Corps tattoo on his arm, the retired first sergeant remains a competitive shooter.

He and his wife, Sharon, raised Joshua and their daughter, Katie, 25, in New Portland, population 800. The family attended Crossroads Bible Church in nearby Madison.

Father and son shared the same philosophy: service to God, family, country and Marines — in that order, Bernard said.

Joshua was quiet, polite and determined. He led a Bible study in Afghanistan and earned the call sign "Holy Man." He also was a crack shot — best in his company, his father said.

Request denied for artillery fire support
Bernard says the battle that claimed Joshua's life was just one example of all that's wrong in Afghanistan.

When four Marines were killed in another ambush, near the Pakistan border, a McClatchy Newspapers reporter embedded with the unit wrote that its request for artillery fire support was declined because of the rules of engagement. The reporter quoted Marines as saying women and children were replenishing the insurgents' ammunition.

In another recent incident, an Afghan police officer on patrol with U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Americans, killing two of them. The assailant managed to escape.

The solution isn't that complicated, Bernard said. He wants the U.S. military to return to its original mission of chasing and killing the Taliban and al-Qaida. Otherwise, he said, bring the troops home.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, raised Bernard's concerns to Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, during an Armed Services Committee meeting last month.

"Getting this right in the long run will actually result in fewer casualties," Mullen said, according to a transcript of the hearing. "That doesn't mean risk isn't up higher now, given the challenges we have and the direction that McChrystal has laid out."

Rep. Mike Michaud, D-Maine, also raised Bernard's concerns in a letter to Gates, requesting that someone from the Pentagon chief's office formally contact Bernard. So far, no one has.

As a retired Marine, Bernard said he's obligated to speak up. His son is now gone, but he said others are still at risk.

"We've got guys in harm's way getting shot at and getting killed," he said. "To me, it's immoral that anybody in this country wouldn't have that first and last on their minds."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP

I'll take a former Marine's advice over any politician or news blowhard, any day of the week.

[hideyoursheep]

Yeah....it's not about OUR guys getting killed anymore, it's about the civilians.

What type of uniform were the people in the WTC wearing again?

It's time for Operation Mind-Fuck.

Announce that we're giving up....pulling out. Give a timetable. Let them watch us leave.

Let them come out of the woodwork like the cockroaches they are and celebrate the great victory they've won over the "infidels". Let them re-establish themselves.

Then, without warning, make a U-turn....



Ka-Boom, baby!



Any word on that kid who was captured while "falling behind during a patrol"? What happened to him?