Elly's First Flame

[Ellyllions]

I know we don't like talking about religion. And in another thread about the war between Israel and Hezbollah spiraled into religion but as it was explained to me religion is the driving force behind what's going on.

Here's how I was taught...(don't bitch slap me if I'm wrong please and try not to argue symantecs...you get the gist of what I'm saying here even if I'm unable to tell the story perfectly)

Abraham had a wife who went into her 90's without bearing Children. God repeatedly told Abraham that she would and renamed her. Abraham gets impatient and gets one of her handmaid's pregnant. The handmaid has a son. Shortly thereafter his wife bears him a son. According to the traditions of that time, the first born son inherits all of his father's property and such. Abraham denied the handmaid's child as his first born and gave everything to his wife's son.

The handmaid's son was bitter.

According to what I was taught...the handmaid's sons lineage was Muhammed. And down Abraham's lineage with his wife was...........Jesus.

The fight between the Arabs and Jews stems from this division. After 2000 years, Muhammed's followers believe that all of the Middle East was the birth-right property of the handmaid's child. Supposedly the two opposing religions stemmed from this ancient tradition and confusion over who was Abraham's first born son and which was entitled to all of Abraham's inheritance.

Now, the Muslims and the Christians went to war. There was a great Jewish temple in Israel (forgive me for not knowing specifics). Legend has it that it was the place where the Ark of the Covenant was hidden. Well, during another earlier battle, the Muslims captured the temple and built a Mosque on top of the Jewish temple. Then Israel prevailed and took it back. Now supposedly the Muslims claim that the Jews "took" a Islamic Mosque.

See how this is going....based on this explanation it is a battle of religion, and it has been going on for centuries. So to avoid talking about religion when talking about this battle is missing part of the reason it's even happening.

Of course, the modern world can't comprehend what it's all over because the modern world (especially the US) doesn't see how or why people should die over this kind of battle. The Baptists and the Catholics aren't bombing each other over here, so it doesn't make much sense to us. But for them, the hatred and the reasons for the war is very real. The Muslims fully believe that the land that the Jews occupy is part of a rightful inheritance to their prophet by "father Abraham".

[LoungeMachine]

Watch the West Wing Episode entitled "Issac and Ishmael"

There's a great scene dealing with this.



It was actually using it as a parable to 9/11

Good episode opening the 3rd season.

[Ellyllions]

Ok, I'll check it out.

Ya know, when you look at it from the standpoint of birthright inheritance and family arguments...it kind of depletes the importance of the "spritiual" implications that both parties spout doesn't it.

[LoungeMachine]

Quite.

[FORD]

Elly, your description of the conflict, or at least the religious side of it, is pretty much accurate. God's promise to Abraham was to make him a "father of many nations" and it was in that context that God gave this huge piece of land to Abe and his children. And since neither Ishmael or Isaac had been born yet at that point, then it's assuming facts not in evidence to say that God only meant ONE of Abe's kids.

Then there's the little fact that the handmaiden's name was Hagar. Is it possible that Sammy is descended from the Ishmael family line? I think it's safe to assume that Isaac is David Lee Roth's ancestor

[Ellyllions]

Well the tradition was that the first born son was to receive all inheritance. The conflict is over whether or not the "illegtimate" son born to the handmaid was the rightful first born or not.

This goes even further doesn't it?
Doesn't the FreeMason's believe that the "sons" of the US were direct descendants to Issac? Thereby being a "sister" to the Jews?

That thickens the plot quite a bit doesn't it?

[thome]

Why don't you Bible Quoteing Gentlemen do me a favor..

When you need a book on a subject you want to learn ,you visit the library..Yes/No ?

When you need your 99 Porche worked on you seek out a qualified
mechanic, Yes ? No ?

Why dont you find a nice Church of some denomination you feel qualified about and walk in, in the Middle of the Day, any day.

Get down on your knees in the empty sanctuary or tabernacle or
just sit on one of the benches take a deep breath exhale and
ask the concept of your choice if i needed answers who should i ask.

Odds are in the favor of the priest or minister of the veryplace you are sitting.

Then get up see if he or she is around and ask if you may speak about a few questions that have been keeping you up at night.

You see they study the bible and every other incarnation of the
belief systems of the whole world.It's thier job, usually they have
a lifetime of study involved.

You need a mechanic for you soul this is where you must go for the tune-up.

Oh, and by the way, i have done ,same, a couple of time .

[Ellyllions]

Thome....I was raised in church. I firmly believe that my grandfather went straight to heaven when he died not because he was an elder in our church for most of his life, but because he kept an open mind about how that Holy Bible played out in human nature and history.

He taught me everything I came to know about Spirituality and how it relates to the soul. He also taught me that some of the knowlege you get from being Spiritual isn't given to you by a voicebox (minister, priest, whatever name they choose to be called by)...but more from your own heart when studying the Verses.

So you shouldn't be telling everyone that they need another human being to tell them what is right and wrong. The Bible plainly says that it's so easy that even a child can comprehend. And that's all we need to know. Over the centuries all messages become tainted with greed, power, and figurehead influences. I believe our concept of all Holy writings have had the same done to them. The truth is in one's heart, and each shall be judged by those truths as opposed to being led one way or another by a "leader".

Furthermore, just because someone else may not be Spiritual doesn't give any of us the right to decide if they're wrong or not. And to speak that way will lead them in the opposite direction.

You get more flies with honey goes a long way in a lot of places.

[thome]

Some are not posesed of a -old soul- as you are and need some guidance to stop thier madness and push them just a little further
out of the endless loop of unanswerd question they see to
find, no help with.
\
Sometimes, you alone are not enough -the pennatant man sees god-
the old saying means to me you need to -ask- for some help.

that is very hard for some, the humiliation of asking and then afterwards
the realization is there is no humiliation in it, at times... really -asking-
for some words of guidance.
From of all people a man of the cloth.not your bud or the dude on
the barstool.. left. Just bite your proud bottom lip and walk in the door.

[Ellyllions]

Ok...I'm not getting into this with you. This is not the intention of the thread and if I keep going on, so will you. You obviously didn't even comprehend my last post.


Back to the subject at hand, please?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Well the tradition was that the first born son was to receive all inheritance. The conflict is over whether or not the "illegtimate" son born to the handmaid was the rightful first born or not.

This goes even further doesn't it?
Doesn't the FreeMason's believe that the "sons" of the US were direct descendants to Issac? Thereby being a "sister" to the Jews?

That thickens the plot quite a bit doesn't it?

I don't keep up with the Masonic conspiracies very much. One of my grandfathers was a Mason, and it certainly hasn't opened any "secret doors" for me. I think I got ripped off. I want my secret organization benefits package, damn it!

Unfortunately, I never talked to him about it that much, so I don't know much about the Masonic doctrine.

I do know that a lot of former Presidents have been Masons, but none of them from the group that has dominated the White House for 30 of the last 50 years. (i.e. Bush, his daddy, Reagan, Nixon, etc.)

[thome]

I think my post is spot on on your topic You seem to be asking question of the wrong people.

---------
Furthermore, just because someone else may not be Spiritual doesn't give any of us the right to decide if they're wrong or not. And to speak that way will lead them in the opposite direction.
-----------
Saying someone is not spiritual is like saying i only drive Chevrolets
but if i was stranded i would not accept a ride from a guy in a Toyota.

In even the conflicts of missundrstood dogma there is spirituality.

Arguing over the concepts of Non - believers or retributions of two
thousand year old grievances must come from a base of the belief system.

You can take it back to Cain and Able if you want to believe there
was a Mohammed and Abraham.

Sorry if you think i changed the Direction of you thread My concepts of your post are written here and above if you would preffer i don't post in your thread say so and i will back out.

[Little Texan]

Originally posted by FORD
I do know that a lot of former Presidents have been Masons, but none of them from the group that has dominated the White House for 30 of the last 50 years. (i.e. Bush, his daddy, Reagan, Nixon, etc.)

You're wrong there, Ford. I believe I saw somewhere on the web a while back when I was doing some research on the masons that Gerald Ford was a Freemason.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Little Texan
You're wrong there, Ford. I believe I saw somewhere on the web a while back when I was doing some research on the masons that Gerald Ford was a Freemason.

OK, but it's not like he was in office long enough to enact any "secret Masonic conspiracy". And of course, he was never elected President (or Vice President) either. I believe his only elected position was congressman, and I don't know what the numbers are on Masons who have served in Congress.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions TO THOME
Ok...I'm not getting into this with you. This is not the intention of the thread and if I keep going on, so will you. You obviously didn't even comprehend my last post.


Back to the subject at hand, please?

Elly just discovered the thome factor.

cheap beer + glue + propane fumes = incoherent posts