President Obama's Nowruz message to Iranian people

[Nickdfresh]

Interesting choice of words. So it's just a 'fuck up'. Who gives a fuck? Nice attitude given the wide scale of grief the US has spread worldwide.

Of course, you're taking my words completely out of context like the buffoon you are...

The point is, what exactly do you want the US to do about it?

And why won't you actually answer any questions rather than just comment on my comments out of context?

Because you again are a simpleton with simpleton answers...or no answers...

And you're comparing the killing of how many gays exactly with the genocides in various Middle Eastern, South American, fuck that close to the whole globe? For all your love of logic you sure manage to show little when it suits you.

Are you saying that it is okay for Iran to murder gays because there is genocide in the world?

Incidentally, what "genocide" are you referring too? Please be specific. Try using Google...

Not neccessarily so, even though I haven't counted atrocities on either side. It's just the international press doesn't really look into the atrocites commited by good guys which India currently are even though in the past no one gave a shit when bombs exploded through out the country ... or even when this happened in the UK from the IRA. This is propaganda.

The international press often can't find their ass from a hole in the ground...

And I suppose Cheney and Rumsfeld display what you call human nature or Hitler for that matter. The false flag drills, the stand down orders for one of the planes, none of this is worth a thorough investigation? There's tons of facts which are unaccounted for and which you try to explain away by saying it's out of people's control.

Yes, but unlike Hitler, they left after being forced to resign or their terms ended...and they were denounced by the opposition...

But thanks for the 1+1=5 moment. Stand down orders? Like which ones? Cheney in some respects is no more amoral than the 9/11-profiteering douchebags that, more often that not, serve his purposes and play right into his hands...

Clinton attacked enough countries in his time, Serbia (many now say unneccessarily), Sudan, Iraq, enough to make him an asshole warmonger.

Oh, poor Serbia. They just couldn't execute the entire male population, and rape the female one, of Bosnia. Nor could they just ethically cleanse Kosovo...BTW, it wasn't just "Clinton," it was NATO that attacked Serbia after Serbia attacked their former populations using heavy weapons against almost (initially) unarmed civilians...

But then, why don't you defend the Holocaust and Hitler, after all, he too was against the evil-USA...

The democracy the US spreads is always bound up with war,

BUT. WE. HAVE. NEVER. ACTUALLY. "SPREAD DEMOCRACY." IDIOT! Feel free to point out an example of this...

and that plenty of people do object to. Which US leader has so far shown an understanding of local public opinion and been able to transplant a new leadership without pissing them off? They come in with the arrogance of any past colonial mindset (or modern day lib) and think they can set it right.

LOL This is almost getting comical...

Chalabi was so obviously a puppet and also a part of a corruption scandal. As for the other guy I'm going to look for material and I'll get back on it.

Okay. So he was a "puppet" that was voted out in favor of a non-puppet?

There's missiles right on Russia's border so I'm taking that idea with a pinch of salt.

So? Why don't you ask other countries such as Poland what they think of Russia? They wanted those missiles too...

They were on the border with East Pakistan, and the two countries were already firing at each other. Bangladesh also wanted to be independent, suffered massacres at Pak hands and at the very least we're talking about former Indian territory right on our borders and people who share similar origins. We're also talking real war which is justified, not a media fantasy.

So India was acting like "Clinton" did in Serbia then?

But bombing the country is not going to change anything. I forget where this was (here maybe) but a lot of Afghans would like an Iranian sharia model for their country. You can't just bomb a few Taliban into submission, it's probably much of the population, theirs is a whole different culture. Telling their women to take off the hijab is like me telling you to listen to an A-HA album.

Bombing in itself is only one facet and will not change anything long term, I agree...I think I've already covered this and you continue to selectively ignore that because you ain't too bright and are just trolling at this point...

Good luck.

I'll cue up "Hungry Like a Wolf" to get psyched up for it!

Oh forgive my ignorance (don't quote this on it's own, smartass) but perhaps Pakistan which he has bleated about since his campaign? He would be in Iran too right now if the plan wasn't mooted FOR HIM by the folks at the Bilderberg.

I think he might just resent the fact that the US gives significant military aid to Pakistan, and they are unable to control their provinces like Waziristan despite the fact that they have a large army and paramilitary forces. Especially since they seem to want to control Kashmir even more than the provinces they already have in their country...

As if there aren't enough disaffected people being radicalized by the latest round of bombings. Way to go in getting them on your side. Just send the boy who had his entire village knocked out a couple of flowers and pray that he doesn't find friends to give him a dirty bomb in ten years time.

Um, they were already radicalized to begin with.

Thanks for this steaming pile of Bush/Obama propaganda.

Actually, it was read about twenty years ago while reading a US ex-counterterrorist....

Bush and Cheney don't have balls enough to admit anything...

But it is true. Did the US and Britain not attack German factories and military targets in WWII simply because civilians nearby would undoubtedly get killed due to the inaccuracy of bombing? No. We did attack. And I am not advocating the large scale nor widespread killing of civilians. But by planning and keeping weapons in their abodes, they effectively make everyone around them a target. I do think the choice of targets should be very measured though. And the US forces have very stringent rules of engagement, and there are circumstances where fire was withheld in order to prevent civilian casualties...

I'd also point out that bombing would be unnecessary if Pakistan would actually take control of their own anarchtic provinces...

The language and a little of the culture yes, but I don't really subscribe to any culture out there that I know of, although most cultures when broken down are just about the same values. But not enough for me to be thankful about anything.

Okay. Agreed...

[Andy Taylor]

Of course, you're taking my words completely out of context like the buffoon you are...

No, you were trying to compare the two when there is no real comparison.

The point is, what exactly do you want the US to do about it?

Mind their own business, give up the empire and the precious oil.

And why won't you actually answer any questions rather than just comment on my comments out of context? Are you saying that it is okay for Iran to murder gays because there is genocide in the world?

Incidentally, what "genocide" are you referring too? Please be specific. Try using Google...

My answer was in the first para which you spliced into two, just above this sentence of yours. How about your taking my words out of context? Where did I imply that it was ok to execute gays? Any comparison of this to say, one such case of genocide which is the current Iraq war, since the beginning is absurd.

Because you again are a simpleton with simpleton answers...or no answers...

Yes, because you and people like you are so intelligent. It's your kind that go into these bullshit wars with your entirely myopic view of things. A "generalisation" which is true and to humour you, I've decided to google a little further below, even though America's 'fuck up's' are a given and too numerous to mention.

Yes, but unlike Hitler, they left after being forced to resign or their terms ended...and they were denounced by the opposition...

But thanks for the 1+1=5 moment. Stand down orders? Like which ones? Cheney in some respects is no more amoral than the 9/11-profiteering douchebags that, more often that not, serve his purposes and play right into his hands...

Because Cheney as powerful as he was (Even Rumsfeld with his own version of the storm troopers) is a puppet, albeit a powerful one.

The plane that hit the pentagon. CIA Analyst Discusses Possible Cheney 9/11 Stand-down Order.

Oh, poor Serbia. They just couldn't execute the entire male population, and rape the female one, of Bosnia. Nor could they just ethically cleanse Kosovo...BTW, it wasn't just "Clinton," it was NATO that attacked Serbia after Serbia attacked their former populations using heavy weapons against almost (initially) unarmed civilians...

Hoaxes that have recently begun to unravel.
ITV - John Pilger - Don't forget Yugoslavia
The tribunal was set up and bankrolled principally by the United States. Del Ponte's role was to investigate the crimes committed as Yugoslavia was dismembered in the 1990s. She insisted that this include Nato's 78-day bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in 1999, which killed hundreds of people in hospitals, schools, churches, parks and tele vision studios, and destroyed economic infrastructure. "If I am not willing to [prosecute Nato personnel]," said Del Ponte, "I must give up my mission." It was a sham. Under pressure from Washington and London, an investigation into Nato war crimes was scrapped.

Readers will recall that the justification for the Nato bombing was that the Serbs were committing "genocide" in the secessionist province of Kosovo against ethnic Albanians. David Scheffer, US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as "225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" may have been murdered. Tony Blair invoked the Holocaust and "the spirit of the Second World War". The west's heroic allies were the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose murderous record was set aside. The British foreign secretary, Robin Cook, told them to call him any time on his mobile phone.

With the Nato bombing over, international teams descended upon Kosovo to exhume the "holocaust". The FBI failed to find a single mass grave and went home. The Spanish forensic team did the same, its leader angrily denouncing "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines". A year later, Del Ponte's tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The "holocaust" was a lie. The Nato attack had been fraudulent.

But then, why don't you defend the Holocaust and Hitler, after all, he too was against the evil-USA...

In an ideal world they've have done each other in along with Russia, China and Japan.

BUT. WE. HAVE. NEVER. ACTUALLY. "SPREAD DEMOCRACY." IDIOT! Feel free to point out an example of this...

Keep reaching. It's not what I would call democracy, but unless you're being thick that's exactly what your administrations call it. Even otherwise it is implicit in all the rationales for most US wars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/weekinreview/22baker.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

...Democrats in Congress created the democracy and human rights bureau at the State Department in the 1970s, and Jimmy Carter embraced it as he made human rights a central tenet of his foreign policy. Ronald Reagan created the National Endowment for Democracy to encourage reform around the world. Bill Clinton made democracy promotion one of four pillars of the nation’s international development strategy.

'An End To The Balkan Wars' headlined the Financial Times editorial on 7 October. Bill Clinton believed this was the restoration of democracy as he knows it: 'It is the end of the war Mr Milosevic started in the former Yugoslavia 10 years ago... The greatest remaining obstacle to the long held dream of a peaceful, undivided, democratic Europe for the first time in history has now been removed'.

LOL This is almost getting comical...

No, it's dead on and you have no argument. The Serbian wars alone are a case in point.

[03-31-99] Veran Matic, Bombing the Seeds of Democracy Out of the Soil of Yugoslavia
Serbia's spring in October

Okay. So he was a "puppet" that was voted out in favor of a non-puppet?

I said I don't believe he's a non-puppet.

So? Why don't you ask other countries such as Poland what they think of Russia? They wanted those missiles too...

Why are you taking this in another pointless direction, we were talking about the US seeing Russia as a threat. Not about who's to blame.

So India was acting like "Clinton" did in Serbia then?

Absurd. Like your killing gays = bad as wars theory.

Bombing in itself is only one facet and will not change anything long term, I agree...I think I've already covered this and you continue to selectively ignore that because you ain't too bright and are just trolling at this point...

No, I bring this up because you continue to think the war is getting anywhere.

Um, they were already radicalized to begin with.

Good reason to bomb them some more, that'll learn them.

But it is true. Did the US and Britain not attack German factories and military targets in WWII simply because civilians nearby would undoubtedly get killed due to the inaccuracy of bombing? No. We did attack. And I am not advocating the large scale nor widespread killing of civilians. But by planning and keeping weapons in their abodes, they effectively make everyone around them a target. I do think the choice of targets should be very measured though. And the US forces have very stringent rules of engagement, and there are circumstances where fire was withheld in order to prevent civilian casualties...

That is deeply insulting considering we are talking about a nation that carpet bombs, uses depleted uranium affecting their own troops and the enemy, and seemingly has a bombing quota to fill to justify a fraudulent war.

I'd also point out that bombing would be unnecessary if Pakistan would actually take control of their own anarchtic provinces...

It's an internal issue and until the Pakistani army launches an assault on US interests there's no reason to attack their country.

[LoungeMachine]

It's the Battle of the Multi-Quote Function !!!!!!

Sorry, Andrea. You're outmatched.



Stick to dead British synth/hair bands.....

[Andy Taylor]

It's the Battle of the Multi-Quote Function !!!!!!

What are you going on about now, SpamMachine?

[Blaze]

It's the Battle of the Multi-Quote Function !!!!!!

Sorry, Andrea. You're outmatched.



Stick to dead British synth/hair bands.....

the Battle of the Multi-Quote Function ....
True DAT.:happy64:
I quit reading for content quite a few Multi-Quote Functions back and I have an interest in the subject matter.

[Andy Taylor]

It was Nick's idea to use the quotes.

Besides, how else would anyone know which part you're addressing specifically if you don't use quotes.

[LoungeMachine]

It was Nick's idea to use the quotes.
.

No, it was the software designer's.

Besides, how else would anyone know which part you're addressing specifically if you don't use quotes.

You think anyone is bothering to read your posts?


really?


Anyone who has been here longer than 15 minutes knows Nick has you outmatched with his frontal lobe tied behind his back.

I'd use a Harlem Globetrotters / Washington Generals reference here, but I'm afraid it would be lost on you....



Watch out for that bucket of confetti though.....

[Andy Taylor]

So you replied to my posts without reading them?

Go blow your hot air somewhere else.

[LoungeMachine]

So you replied to my posts without reading them?

Go blow your hot air somewhere else.

I replied to your post, but not about them.

I'll do as I wish here, bigboy. Don't mind us, we're just watching the show.

Don't get performance anxiety now on us. Go get Nick.

I'm sure you have him on the ropes by now.



:whistles globetrotters theme:

[Nickdfresh]

No, you were trying to compare the two when there is no real comparison.

No. I clearly stated a question to you, which you avoid because you're a morally inconsistent asswipe, Mary...

Mind their own business, give up the empire and the precious oil.

Oh, okay. So Iran gets to set up an empire and bully every nation in the Persian Gulf, which they've been doing for decades...

Why would we give up the precious oil? I certainly wish we would, but of course they'd be fucked if we actually did it...

My answer was in the first para which you spliced into two, just above this sentence of yours. How about your taking my words out of context? Where did I imply that it was ok to execute gays? Any comparison of this to say, one such case of genocide which is the current Iraq war, since the beginning is absurd.

There was no answer, pugsly. You answer questions with questions and ignore what you find inconvenient...

Because it is pretty clear you're uneducated and haven't the slightest level of comprehension of history beyond primary school, which is why you resort to such generalizations....

Yes, because you and people like you are so intelligent. It's your kind that go into these bullshit wars with your entirely myopic view of things. A "generalisation" which is true and to humour you, I've decided to google a little further below, even though America's 'fuck up's' are a given and too numerous to mention.

Which War did I "go into" supergenius? Define "fuckup." We're the empire, right?

Because Cheney as powerful as he was (Even Rumsfeld with his own version of the storm troopers) is a puppet, albeit a powerful one.

The plane that hit the pentagon. CIA Analyst Discusses Possible Cheney 9/11 Stand-down Order.

Right. More out of context horseshit...

Oh, a "possible stand down order?" There was very little air defense available over the continental US to begin with since the Cold War was over...

Hoaxes that have recently begun to unravel.
ITV - John Pilger - Don't forget Yugoslavia
[I]The tribunal was set up and bankrolled principally by the United States. Del Ponte's role was to investigate the crimes committed as Yugoslavia was dismembered in the 1990s. She insisted that this include Nato's 78-day bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in 1999, which killed hundreds of people in hospitals, schools, churches, parks and tele vision studios, and destroyed economic infrastructure. "If I am not willing to [prosecute Nato personnel]," said Del Ponte, "I must give up my mission." It was a sham. Under pressure from Washington and London, an investigation into Nato war crimes was scrapped.

Oh right, and Australian journalists opinion is now fact? And Del Ponte resigned? When? She apparently "never gave up (her) mission."

The point of bombing is to destroy economic infrastructure....

From: Carla Del Ponte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She remained the Prosecutor for the ICTY until 1 January 2008, when she was succeeded by Serge Brammertz.

So she was so disgusted by NATO actions that she quit 10 years after taking the job? Really?

Her main complaints are of the Albanian KLA and human organ trafficking (which I agree) and their terror activities against Serbs...

Readers will recall that the justification for the Nato bombing was that the Serbs were committing "genocide" in the secessionist province of Kosovo against ethnic Albanians. David Scheffer, US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as "225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" may have been murdered. Tony Blair invoked the Holocaust and "the spirit of the Second World War". The west's heroic allies were the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose murderous record was set aside. The British foreign secretary, Robin Cook, told them to call him any time on his mobile phone.

I agree there was plenty of hyperbole and hysteria. But then, when we saw the Bosnian campaign as a nauseating exemplar of what Milosevic's regime was capable of, it is understandable....

But what cannot be disputed was that almost the entire country was emptied of Albanians at the point of a gun...and are the Kosovars all America shill propagandists?

frontline: war in europe: ethnic cleansing and atrocities in kosovo

BTW, why didn't you bring up any "war crimes" committed during Bosnia?

With the Nato bombing over, international teams descended upon Kosovo to exhume the "holocaust". The FBI failed to find a single mass grave and went home. The Spanish forensic team did the same, its leader angrily denouncing "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines". A year later, Del Ponte's tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The "holocaust" was a lie. The Nato attack had been fraudulent.

At a point, "only" 2100 bodies were found (as of 2000), but more were believed to have been murdered by even Del Ponte...

The current est. is 12,000 total killed according to the Lancet (on all sides) and human rights groups have reported roughly 4,400:

Kosovo War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Liberation of Kosovo: 100 massacres, 10,000 dead - a catalogue of horror reveals depth of Serb depravity - News - The Independent

Um, there were mass graves, and detailed accounts of Serb Nazi-like hostage retaliation executions for KLA attacks on the police...

frontline: war in europe: interviews: three albanian victims of serbian ethnic cleansing and atrocities

In an ideal world they've have done each other in along with Russia, China and Japan.

Wow. Why don't you just kill yourself then? that way you'd be able to purge yourself of the hypocrisy of living in a fascist NATO country, while hoping to move to another NATO country that didn't work out....

I guess it's okay for you to live on the ass of the "imperialists" you so hate and denounce, right?

Keep reaching. It's not what I would call democracy, but unless you're being thick that's exactly what your administrations call it. Even otherwise it is implicit in all the rationales for most US wars.

I'm "reaching?" Dummy, YOU ARE the one that is making the generalizations not backed up by any sort of historical precedent!

Not me...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/we...ewanted=2&_r=1

...Democrats in Congress created the democracy and human rights bureau at the State Department in the 1970s, and Jimmy Carter embraced it as he made human rights a central tenet of his foreign policy. Ronald Reagan created the National Endowment for Democracy to encourage reform around the world. Bill Clinton made democracy promotion one of four pillars of the nation’s international development strategy.

LMFAO!! So no matter what the US does, it's wrong. We attempt to actually enact some sort of moralism by championing human rights, and that is still wrong...

'An End To The Balkan Wars' headlined the Financial Times editorial on 7 October. Bill Clinton believed this was the restoration of democracy as he knows it: 'It is the end of the war Mr Milosevic started in the former Yugoslavia 10 years ago... The greatest remaining obstacle to the long held dream of a peaceful, undivided, democratic Europe for the first time in history has now been removed'.

[/quote]

Right. But it was the Serbians that deposed Milosevic. Not US forces, not NATO bombs. It was the people themselves that dumped his ass....

Why don't you go and tell them they were fucking wrong, idiot!

No, it's dead on and you have no argument. The Serbian wars alone are a case in point.

A point of what? that the US has selflessly stopped genocide and ethnic cleanings. God we're great!!

I said I don't believe he's a non-puppet.

So, what is he?

He sure isn't following our line, and Iran is the big winner in the US-Iraq War...

Why are you taking this in another pointless direction, we were talking about the US seeing Russia as a threat. Not about who's to blame.

Oh sorry, I have to remember you have no fucking clue about anything, and can't discuss anything out side the sphere of mindless anti-gov't conspiracies.

Absurd. Like your killing gays = bad as wars theory.

No dummy. What is absurd is the fact that you are unable to comprehend my point, that you're an ignorant hypcrite that is completely immune to any self-examination...

You are the one that believes that only the US deserves criticism, while other nations have the right to commit atrocities at will...

No, I bring this up because you continue to think the war is getting anywhere.

When did I say that?

Good reason to bomb them some more, that'll learn them.

You bomb people to kill them, not "learn them."

That is deeply insulting considering we are talking about a nation that carpet bombs,

Bombing carpets is terrible...

...uses depleted uranium affecting their own troops and the enemy,

Depleted uranium sucks. But I think there is little evidence linking it to health issues...

And of course it "affects" the enemy!

and seemingly has a bombing quota to fill to justify a fraudulent war.

Why would they have a bombing-quota?

Which war is fraudulent?

It's an internal issue and until the Pakistani army launches an assault on US interests there's no reason to attack their country.

But they are attacking Afghanistan, and many Afghans would beg to differ...

[Andy Taylor]

No. I clearly stated a question to you, which you avoid because you're a morally inconsistent asswipe, Mary...

Back there you said "Who gives a fuck? and what real meaning does this have on today's events". Yes, you asked what I thought of Iran executing gays. For the record they're sick, ok. In past posts, probably not this thread, I thought I'd made it clear that these Middle Eastern regimes should be condemned for their actions.

Oh, okay. So Iran gets to set up an empire and bully every nation in the Persian Gulf, which they've been doing for decades...

So the US will bully them into quitting?

Why would we give up the precious oil? I certainly wish we would, but of course they'd be fucked if we actually did it...

How so? You'd still be buying it.

There was no answer, pugsly. You answer questions with questions and ignore what you find inconvenient...

Well now you have my answer in this post. I wondered what the relevance of this was here other than you trying to use the execution of gays as an excuse for the US' imperial designs.

Because it is pretty clear you're uneducated and haven't the slightest level of comprehension of history beyond primary school, which is why you resort to such generalizations....

What is the generalization there? You don't know what you're talking about.

Which War did I "go into" supergenius? Define "fuckup." We're the empire, right?

Clinton started a few. Obama continued Bush's wars.

What were you talking about when you originally said America had fucked up? Terrorist attacks and the populace being hostile to their liberators can be taken as a sign. Above all, is not even having a genuine reason for being there. The reasons are always vague and ever changing.

Right. More out of context horseshit...

er no... you make Cheney out to be a leader who can be removed by the people which therefore makes him different to Hitler. My point was that he is as dangerous if not as capable.

Oh, a "possible stand down order?" There was very little air defense available over the continental US to begin with since the Cold War was over...

Are you going off based on the title of that video? The staff whoever came over to Cheney each time and asked "same instructions?" as the plane got ever closer and was given an affirmative answer.

Oh right, and Australian journalists opinion is now fact?

He may just be an 'Australian journalist' to your ignorant ass but he's probably the most respected journo in the UK and also probably well known across Europe.

ITV - John Pilger - Biog

And Del Ponte resigned? When? She apparently "never gave up (her) mission."

The point of bombing is to destroy economic infrastructure....

From: Carla Del Ponte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So she was so disgusted by NATO actions that she quit 10 years after taking the job? Really?

Her main complaints are of the Albanian KLA and human organ trafficking (which I agree) and their terror activities against Serbs...



I agree there was plenty of hyperbole and hysteria. But then, when we saw the Bosnian campaign as a nauseating exemplar of what Milosevic's regime was capable of, it is understandable....

But what cannot be disputed was that almost the entire country was emptied of Albanians at the point of a gun...and are the Kosovars all America shill propagandists?

frontline: war in europe: ethnic cleansing and atrocities in kosovo

BTW, why didn't you bring up any "war crimes" committed during Bosnia?



At a point, "only" 2100 bodies were found (as of 2000), but more were believed to have been murdered by even Del Ponte...

The current est. is 12,000 total killed according to the Lancet (on all sides) and human rights groups have reported roughly 4,400:

Kosovo War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Liberation of Kosovo: 100 massacres, 10,000 dead - a catalogue of horror reveals depth of Serb depravity - News - The Independent

Um, there were mass graves, and detailed accounts of Serb Nazi-like hostage retaliation executions for KLA attacks on the police...

frontline: war in europe: interviews: three albanian victims of serbian ethnic cleansing and atrocities

There would have been a case for the US stepping in during the Bosnian war, except that the whole problem was their creation from the start. (Further down).

The findings in Lancet come from a US health dept agency. I would find it neccessary to question just how reliable this is. The Independent article found its source in the British govt who took it from who knows which 'intelligence sources' and the KLA too. PBS has been known to turn down documentaries for being a little too 'anti-Bush.'

Fine. Nazi like retaliations. And this is from the same wiki source. The Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade, an organization funded by the European Commission, have announced that it had identified 8,000 Serbians out of a total of 12,000 casualties they had identified in the Kosovo War. Whether Ponte ultimately quit or no is not exactly a central point. Those were her findings.

Wow. Why don't you just kill yourself then? that way you'd be able to purge yourself of the hypocrisy of living in a fascist NATO country, while hoping to move to another NATO country that didn't work out....

I guess it's okay for you to live on the ass of the "imperialists" you so hate and denounce, right?

I'm no more a hypocrite than someone who is gay living in a southern state in the US. Should I stop listening to American music too?

I'm "reaching?" Dummy, YOU ARE the one that is making the generalizations not backed up by any sort of historical precedent!

Not me...

You say there is no historical precedent, even though all recent presidents spoke of spreading democracy. Reach... higher... you can do it.

LMFAO!! So no matter what the US does, it's wrong. We attempt to actually enact some sort of moralism by championing human rights, and that is still wrong...

Because it's not moral, it's only their words, are you that obtuse? But what else am I to expect from your media loving self? If I accuse Obama of having ulterior motives in Pak and elsewhere, I fully expect you to come back saying, no he doesn't, he said so himself.

Right. But it was the Serbians that deposed Milosevic. Not US forces, not NATO bombs. It was the people themselves that dumped his ass....

Why don't you go and tell them they were fucking wrong, idiot!

However, doofus, the US had plans to assasinate Milosevic right at the start. Whether the Serbs did it is inconsequential to the invasion. That's their business which they're entitled to. It's neccessary to point out that many, believe that the whole war was meant to break up Yugoslavia. This is where you remain confused, it's that you swallow the official line whole and fail to overcome your imperial-like thinking dillema.

A point of what? that the US has selflessly stopped genocide and ethnic cleanings.

This would be funny if it weren't tragic.

The responsibility lies for the whole crisis lies at the feet of the US.

By Ramsey Clark.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER--THE DESTRUCTION OF THE BALKAN FEDERATION BY THE UNITED STATES AND NATO

I'd recommend reading that from the beginning, not just from where I've linked it.

So, what is he?

He sure isn't following our line, and Iran is the big winner in the US-Iraq War...

I'll get to googling the new pres in time.

Oh sorry, I have to remember you have no fucking clue about anything, and can't discuss anything out side the sphere of mindless anti-gov't conspiracies.

This is comedy gold! You're lashing out at me because of you're inability in following the direction of this discussion.

No dummy. What is absurd is the fact that you are unable to comprehend my point, that you're an ignorant hypcrite that is completely immune to any self-examination...

You are the one that believes that only the US deserves criticism, while other nations have the right to commit atrocities at will...

Further up this post...

When did I say that?

You're getting tiresome. So now you take back what you said about Obama making progress in dealing with the Taliban and whatever other horseshit you said as justification for prolonging the Afghan/Pak wars?

You bomb people to kill them, not "learn them."

Bombing carpets is terrible...

You must right a book with these nuggets in them, people will stay away in droves.

Depleted uranium sucks. But I think there is little evidence linking it to health issues...

And of course it "affects" the enemy!

More brilliance from Captain Logic!

Why would they have a bombing-quota?

Which war is fraudulent?

The Clone Wars. What do you think we've been talking about in this thread?

But they are attacking Afghanistan, and many Afghans would beg to differ...

A shame then the Afghans don't show more gratitude to the US. If I were a US marine I would be quite hurt at this indifference to my blowing up their sons.

[Nickdfresh]

Back there you said "Who gives a fuck? and what real meaning does this have on today's events". Yes, you asked what I thought of Iran executing gays. For the record they're sick, ok. In past posts, probably not this thread, I thought I'd made it clear that these Middle Eastern regimes should be condemned for their actions.

Oh goody, we're getting somewhere...

So the US will bully them into quitting?

No. They're people will get fed up and realize that both the US and Iran have mutually beneficial goals of a stable Middle East...

How so? You'd still be buying it.

During the Carter Regime, the use of "synthentic oil" was talked about, refined from coal. South Africa does it. But when the US became serious, the price of crude suddenly, mysteriously dropped and the plans were abandoned...

In any case, green energy (which synthetic oil from coal certainly is not) needs to be a priority anyways...

Well now you have my answer in this post. I wondered what the relevance of this was here other than you trying to use the execution of gays as an excuse for the US' imperial designs.

Super. Let's move on. But it was far from just about Iran executing gays. It was also about political repression in general. The subjugation of women and forcing them to cover up, attack on public dissent, etc....

What is the generalization there? You don't know what you're talking about.

The lack of specific examples to go with your big words such as "genocide."

Clinton started a few. Obama continued Bush's wars.

Clinton started no wars. He finished them, prevented far more deaths than were inflicted, and prevented the radicalization of a Muslim culture by opportunist Islamic extremists.

Obama has no choice. The War in Afghanistan was not started by Bush, and the Iraq War is a double-edged sword with no easy answers nor real good solutions...

What were you talking about when you originally said America had fucked up?

I know, but you don't...

Terrorist attacks and the populace being hostile to their liberators can be taken as a sign. Above all, is not even having a genuine reason for being there. The reasons are always vague and ever changing.

Which country? Iraq? There has been an overall lack of terrorist attacks by Iraqis on their "liberators" recently...

And many of the terror attacks were on other ethnicities with in the populace. Hardly cut and dry. Isn't it?

er no... you make Cheney out to be a leader who can be removed by the people which therefore makes him different to Hitler. My point was that he is as dangerous if not as capable.

He's as big of an asshole, but had far more constraints on his powers...

Are you going off based on the title of that video? The staff whoever came over to Cheney each time and asked "same instructions?" as the plane got ever closer and was given an affirmative answer.

Paralysis of a spineless tool....

He may just be an 'Australian journalist' to your ignorant ass but he's probably the most respected journo in the UK and also probably well known across Europe.

He isn't universally respected. He's just Micheal Moore a little farther to the left and is hardly a journalist actually. He's a video pundit and plays fast and loose, selectively, with the facts....

However, his work is interesting and invaluable. But he's no journalist. He's a partisan editorialist that pretty obviously takes "facts" out of context...

There would have been a case for the US stepping in during the Bosnian war, except that the whole problem was their creation from the start. (Further down).

Oh fucking please!!

How was ethnic cleansing the US's fault...

This is where you're fucking retarded...

The findings in Lancet come from a US health dept agency. I would find it neccessary to question just how reliable this is. The Independent article found its source in the British govt who took it from who knows which 'intelligence sources' and the KLA too. PBS has been known to turn down documentaries for being a little too 'anti-Bush.'

Right. Well, you'd make a good American Neo Con then, because they denounced the Lancet for their findings on Iraq too...

Fine. Nazi like retaliations. And this is from the same wiki source. The Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade, an organization funded by the European Commission, have announced that it had identified 8,000 Serbians out of a total of 12,000 casualties they had identified in the Kosovo War. Whether Ponte ultimately quit or no is not exactly a central point. Those were her findings.

LOL The "Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade" did, did they?

Except their findings completely contradict everyone elses'...

I'm no more a hypocrite than someone who is gay living in a southern state in the US. Should I stop listening to American music too?

Um, what? Michael Stipe is a gay southern American musician...maybe he's your cup of tea?

You say there is no historical precedent, even though all recent presidents spoke of spreading democracy. Reach... higher... you can do it.

But where have they actually tried to forcibly spread democracy of than Iraq? I think the last clear example would be Germany circa 1946...

You could try to argue Haiti, but democracy was there to begin with.

Maybe try Panama...

Because it's not moral, it's only their words, are you that obtuse?

Actually, Carter did try to moralize US foreign policy by cutting off support for prick regimes in Nicaragua and El Salvador (to an extent)...

He was filleted alive for it by conservatives in the American press...

But what else am I to expect from your media loving self?

"Media loving self?" You love music and conspiracist douchebag radio demagogues...

If I accuse Obama of having ulterior motives in Pak and elsewhere, I fully expect you to come back saying, no he doesn't, he said so himself.

Of course he has ulterior motives!

However, doofus, the US had plans to assasinate Milosevic right at the start. Whether the Serbs did it is inconsequential to the invasion. That's their business which they're entitled to. It's neccessary to point out that many, believe that the whole war was meant to break up Yugoslavia. This is where you remain confused, it's that you swallow the official line whole and fail to overcome your imperial-like thinking dillema.

Um, Yugoslavia broke up BEFORE the War, and had previously only been held together by the force of personality in the (Croatian) Marshal Tito as it was a bastard state created artificially after WWI...

I don't know how old you are, but I studied this closely as it happened, and had a friend that was shot in Kosovo...

Do you even have a clue about its history in WWII?

This would be funny if it weren't tragic.

The responsibility lies for the whole crisis lies at the feet of the US.

By Ramsey Clark.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER--THE DESTRUCTION OF THE BALKAN FEDERATION BY THE UNITED STATES AND NATO

I'd recommend reading that from the beginning, not just from where I've linked it.

LMFAO!! Ramsey Clark? Right! His very title undermines any coherent thought and shows what a complete nihilist fuckwit he is...

There NEVER existed a true "Balkan Federation." Is was a bastardization of countries that only made it as long as it did because Tito was a masterful statesman that expertly repressed nationalism and played factions off against each other...


Clark is a dipshit that believes his own cliches that are completely contradicted by his fundamentally anti-intellectual, simplest take on history....

Here's a not so right wing take on Ramsey Clark, A War Criminal's Best Friend who personally benefited from the butchery of Milosevic, a cunt condemned by the various human right's links YOU'VE posted!! But he defends a pol murderer!!!

From the link:

When (Ramsey Clark) flew to Belgrade to support Slobodan Milosevic during NATO's campaign, there was no word about the siege of Sarajevo, the massacre at Srebrenica or the million homeless refugees from Kosovo -- and even less of those olfactorily eloquent mass graves that NATO is now uncovering. But then, urging Belgrade to resist NATO, while he was there picking up an honorary degree, he told his hosts, "It will be a great struggle, but a glorious victory. You can be victorious."

Maybe he could defend Hitler --and not mention the Holocaust?

All the same to you...

I'll get to googling the new pres in time.

Great! Let us know how that goes!

This is comedy gold! You're lashing out at me because of you're inability in following the direction of this discussion.

More like your ignorance and inability to read anything but what you want too and accept it as truth...

You're getting tiresome. So now you take back what you said about Obama making progress in dealing with the Taliban and whatever other horseshit you said as justification for prolonging the Afghan/Pak wars?

Please quote where I "said" that, fuckwit...Then blow me...

You must right a book with these nuggets in them, people will stay away in droves.

Why would I "right" a book?

More brilliance from Captain Logic!

See above, retard...

The Clone Wars. What do you think we've been talking about in this thread?

I dunno, I was talking about real ones. You're the fantasist...

A shame then the Afghans don't show more gratitude to the US. If I were a US marine I would be quite hurt at this indifference to my blowing up their sons.

Which Afghans? The Tajiks or the Pashtuns?

[Andy Taylor]

No. They're people will get fed up and realize that both the US and Iran have mutually beneficial goals of a stable Middle East...

Sounds like an NYT fairy tale.

The lack of specific examples to go with your big words such as "genocide."

I mentioned Iraq. Illegal war, except in the minds of Bush/some Obama fans, huge numbers of deaths thanks to the US alone.

Clinton started no wars. He finished them, prevented far more deaths than were inflicted, and prevented the radicalization of a Muslim culture by opportunist Islamic extremists.

Further down.

Obama has no choice. The War in Afghanistan was not started by Bush, and the Iraq War is a double-edged sword with no easy answers nor real good solutions...

Very little answers because it's bullshit and imaginary for people like you who can't rid themselves of the matrix they live in.

I know

little.

Which country? Iraq? There has been an overall lack of terrorist attacks by Iraqis on their "liberators" recently...

And many of the terror attacks were on other ethnicities with in the populace. Hardly cut and dry. Isn't it?

Most countries in the world can be destabilised with the help of forces on the outside. If the US descends into poverty I don't believe it will be an exception. I can imagine blacks, Mexicans and ultra-patriots facing each other off. I know of a numbnut in Texas who's preparing for a Russian/Chinese invasion in the near future, he's practising with guns and there are others who share his views on this invasion and are in preparation.

He's as big of an asshole, but had far more constraints on his powers...

Which comes from ... nevermind.

Paralysis of a spineless tool....

The Nile is as comforting as it is refreshing.

He isn't universally respected. He's just Micheal Moore a little farther to the left and is hardly a journalist actually. He's a video pundit and plays fast and loose, selectively, with the facts....

However, his work is interesting and invaluable. But he's no journalist. He's a partisan editorialist that pretty obviously takes "facts" out of context...

What rubbish. He's a real investigative journalist, there's no place he hasn't been and his films have only recently become well known, so he's not a video person like Moore. Look at the awards he's got for decades. What's the American equivalent of him or people like Robert Fisk? Freedman?

Oh fucking please!!

How was ethnic cleansing the US's fault...

This is where you're fucking retarded...

Not for nothing is it called the Great Satan. You start shit, destablise the region, and when the fighting erupts because of certain troublesome elements, you say 'they did it. They hated each other anyway.' This is new to me and it's apparently new to you as well because there's quite a few people who make a case for Milosevic not being the tyrant he's made out to be. I don't know about him apart from a little in the papers way back but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't framed by the US/NATO being the war mongers they are. The US/UK started bombing without it being sanctioned by the UN and the security council had no authority to create a tribunal. Sticking with the near 3000 figure until we see another source or even say 10,000, there was no genocide and therefore no grounds for the invasion. The mass graves were a hoax too. You actually used an article from 1999 back there.

Right. Well, you'd make a good American Neo Con then, because they denounced the Lancet for their findings on Iraq too...

So would you for quoting PBS.

LOL The "Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade" did, did they?

Except their findings completely contradict everyone elses'...

Everyone else's who's results are very likely inaccurate.

But where have they actually tried to forcibly spread democracy of than Iraq? I think the last clear example would be Germany circa 1946...

You could try to argue Haiti, but democracy was there to begin with.

Maybe try Panama...

Face it, democracy was implied in the Balkan, it's what your talking heads bring up all the time, it's the number one buzzword out of any American leader's mouth and it sends libs into spasms of joys too.

Of course he has ulterior motives!

Oh?

Um, Yugoslavia broke up BEFORE the War, and had previously only been held together by the force of personality in the (Croatian) Marshal Tito as it was a bastard state created artificially after WWI...

I don't know how old you are, but I studied this closely as it happened, and had a friend that was shot in Kosovo...

Do you even have a clue about its history in WWII?

This is where I linked you to the Clark article. Further down.

LMFAO!! Ramsey Clark? Right! His very title undermines any coherent thought and shows what a complete nihilist fuckwit he is...

There NEVER existed a true "Balkan Federation." Is was a bastardization of countries that only made it as long as it did because Tito was a masterful statesman that expertly repressed nationalism and played factions off against each other...

Oh so now you say there was no "real" Balkan Federation. India could be a similar bastardization since Kashmir, the north eastern states, and the south are about complete different ethnicities yet they're all Indian.

Clark is a dipshit that believes his own cliches that are completely contradicted by his fundamentally anti-intellectual, simplest take on history....Here's a not so right wing take on Ramsey Clark, A War Criminal's Best Friend who personally benefited from the butchery of Milosevic, a cunt condemned by the various human right's links YOU'VE posted!! But he defends a pol murderer!!!

Those links were meant to illustrate other points. We only got to Milosevic later and until then I hadn't seen anyone try to say that he might not be guilty. That article sounds exactly right wing. They tried to demonise Galloway in a similar way to make out like he had dealings with Saddam just because he met him. I don't know Clark's motivations in representing Saddam but like as I said if Milosevic is not guilty of his crimes (I might look further into this) then Clark is not at fault. From what I've read of him he sounds like a good man and much more morally upright than most. At the least Milosevic's record does not tally with that of the mass murderers Blair & Bush... Blair being the asshole that dares to call others war mongers. This is steaming Western hyprocrisy at it's finest. The Balkan war is like Hitler having both the military and the media on his side, it's a fascist dream and the idiots sit there and swallow it.

From the link:
Maybe he could defend Hitler --and not mention the Holocaust?

All the same to you...

You're repeating the mass grave/holocaust myth despite it being bullshit.

More like your ignorance and inability to read anything but what you want too and accept it as truth...

More like you descending further down into cluelessness.

Please quote where I "said" that, fuckwit...Then blow me...

I know you didn't use those very words, but that's what you meant, stop being a pedantic asshole.

Why would I "right" a book?

Simply brilliant.

I dunno, I was talking about real ones.

Real to you.

Which Afghans? The Tajiks or the Pashtuns?

One of them.

[hideyoursheep]

My finger hurts.

[LoungeMachine]

My eyes hurt.