The Founding Fathers on Religion

[FORD]

One of the things I miss the most about Tucson is the San Xavier Mission.....



I've never been Catholic, and never been remotely interested in joining that church. But that Mission is fucking cool anyways. And one of the oldest buildings in the country too, built in 1797.

[Seshmeister]

I actually dig the symbolism in Catholic Churches, the stations of the cross, stuff like that...I'm a MichaelAngelo (sp) fan. I used to like to go when the place was pretty much closed - quiet, peaceful, almost serene. It's when the place starts filling up with hypocrites I want to run for the exit.

Going to a parochial school, once we got to be 12-13 they started giving us the hard-sell about how they "needed" us to become priests as less and less people were going into the priesthood - almost like a guilt trip. It was creepy. One of the speaker was even doing what's called in sales the "presumptive sell" - we didn't really have a choice in the matter, it was our duty, sign here...no thanks. Plus, once they told me girls were off the table - FUHGEDABOUTIT.

It's important to remember that the child rape isn't anything to do with the specific superstition itself it's about the power and repression it brings.

For example there is more and more evidence coming out now that child rape is endemic in the horrific Hasidic Jewish cult.

[binnie]

It's important to remember that the child rape isn't anything to do with the specific superstition itself it's about the power and repression it brings.

For example there is more and more evidence coming out now that child rape is endemic in the horrific Hasidic Jewish cult.

And that most child abuse occurs WITHIN familes. Which is also horrifying.

The issue of faith/religion is something of a red herring - it is about opportunity and the limited chance of being caught.

[Seshmeister]

I have heard that argument made but it doesn't stand up at all.

Faith/religion created the opportunity otherwise how could someone have the opportunity. The religious superstition creates BOTH the opportunity and limits the chance of being caught.

You are being naive, religion was the lubricant of the mass rape of children and systematic means of covering it up. The pope himself sent out a decree that anyone that did not cover up the raoe of children would be tortured in hell for eternity.

Saying that because children are also abused sometimes by their parents is frankly kind of offensive but illustrates you haven't escaped the damage done to you as a kid.

[binnie]

I have heard that argument made but it doesn't stand up at all.

Faith/religion created the opportunity otherwise how could someone have the opportunity. The religious superstition creates BOTH the opportunity and limits the chance of being caught.

You are being naive, religion was the lubricant of the mass rape of children and systematic means of covering it up. The pope himself sent out a decree that anyone that did not cover up the raoe of children would be tortured in hell for eternity.

Saying that because children are also abused sometimes by their parents is frankly kind of offensive but illustrates you haven't escaped the damage done to you as a kid.

You're missing my point. I'm certainly not trying to diminish the crimes committed by the Priests or the Church's frankly astonishing inability to deal with the issue (or even understand it).

I'm pointing out that there is a danger here of arguing - or assuming - that 'someone is more likely to commit child abuse because they have religious faith'. I don't think that is a tenable argument. The faith is not the deciding factor - the power/control is (just as it is with parents/siblings/relations who commit similar crimes, and with rapes that happen to adults in relationships). For it to be a tenable arguement we would need evidence that faith alters the psychological/biological impetus of a person to make them more predisposed to become a paedophile - without that evidence the arguement/suggestion is made on assumption/prejudice which is equally as 'irrational' as the belief in God (because it is not empirical).

Most child abuse occurs within the family - not necessarily by parents - in the same way that most rapes are committed by someone who the victim knows or is in a relationship with.

Not sure what you mean by 'the damamge done to me as a kid' - I was not raised in a religious household (or abused - unless you count the odd whack here or there).

[Seshmeister]

I guess it comes down to a few things.

Does being a celibate priest make you a paedophile or do paedophiles deliberately become priests for easy access. Because there are 10000% more paedophiles who are/were priests than you would expect demographically.

That's a tricky one because as a science thinking person it's obvious that any ethically collected data on that is going to be problematic.

Sorry for being a dick with the catholic upbringing assumption but the fact remains that either way the religious superstition resulted in the repeated and systemic rape of children and it's cover up that would not have happened without it's power.

[jhale667]

I guess it comes down to a few things.

Does being a celibate priest make you a paedophile or do paedophiles deliberately become priests for easy access. Because there are 10000% more paedophiles who are/were priests than you would expect demographically.

That's a tricky one because as a science thinking person it's obvious that any ethically collected data on that is going to be problematic.

Sorry for being a dick with the catholic upbringing assumption but the fact remains that either way the religious superstition resulted in the repeated and systemic rape of children and it's cover up that would not have happened without it's power.

Dude, I was even an altar boy for a couple of years, nothing at all weird happened to me or my friends...it was pretty much baffling when it first started getting media attention. Can't imagine any of the priests I grew up around (well, except maybe one creepy one) doing anything like that. My best friend from school was like "Holy shit, did we dodge a bullet, or what?" and because he has a similarly twisted sense of humor, added " But hey, maybe we just weren't hot enough as kids?"


But seriously, celibacy it turns out is not a good thing long-term, because sex is more than a desire, scientists say it's a NEED. So knowing that you could kinda see someone losing it after a decade or so and acting out. And kids would be an easy target, add the fact that they have near-parental authority in those scenarios...parasites will be parasites. The Church helping to cover it up, and in some cases facilitating it? Inexcusable.

[binnie]

I guess it comes down to a few things.

Does being a celibate priest make you a paedophile or do paedophiles deliberately become priests for easy access. Because there are 10000% more paedophiles who are/were priests than you would expect demographically.

That's a tricky one because as a science thinking person it's obvious that any ethically collected data on that is going to be problematic.

Sorry for being a dick with the catholic upbringing assumption but the fact remains that either way the religious superstition resulted in the repeated and systemic rape of children and it's cover up that would not have happened without it's power.

Ok, that makes things clearer. Thanks.

There are several issues here:

1) The difference between 'faith' and 'religious institutions'. Clearly - and horrifically - the Church allowed this to continue by not removing Priests in question or really knowing how to deal with it. Consequently, as you say, the institution of the Church was a vital facilitator for it to happen. That is not the same thing as saying that faith - the belief in Christ - caused it to happen (i.e. that someone with a faith in God is more likely to be a Christian).

2) Data. As you say, it is problematic to get data on these crimes. It's the same with adult rape, too. The issue of it not being reported is crucial. Consequently, the '10000%' figure is problemtatic. Most research on child abuse points to it being most common within families. That doesn't let the Church off the hook - it simply problematises the notion that 'being religious makes you more likely to be a sexual deviant'.

3) Celibacy. Again - do we have any data (phsychological/ biological) which suggests that celibacy makes deviancy more likely, or is that an unfounded assumption?

Sorry for splitting hairs - the issue is very emotive. I think - in the spirit of thinking rationally/scientifically - that we have to acknowledge the distinction between stating 'religious people have done heinous things' and stating 'religion was the defining causal factor in motivating them to do heinous things'.

[binnie]

I meant 'that someone with a faith in God is more likely to be a paedophile'.

That's a Freudian slip :D

[Dr. Love]

3) Celibacy. Again - do we have any data (phsychological/ biological) which suggests that celibacy makes deviancy more likely, or is that an unfounded assumption?

I'll not have anyone sullying this forum's reputation with calls for a fact-based discourse.

[jhale667]

I'll not have anyone sullying this forum's reputation with calls for a fact-based discourse.

Actually, I wish I had a link for that study about celibacy cause weirdness long-term handy, but I don't, and can't spend a ton of time searching for it at the office...

[kwame k]

I'll not have anyone sullying this forum's reputation with calls for a fact-based discourse.

I agree.....facts have a nasty habit of getting in the way of a good debate, just ask E

As far a pedophiles and priests goes......the simplest way would be to take the number of priests worldwide divided by the number of documented cases and come up with a working average. Use the + or - for the unreported cases and it'll give you a good idea of how prevalent this is.

The Church is clinging on to it's outdated traditions and the results are less priests answering the calling and less people attending church, as far as Catholics are concerned.

Most people have no problem with priests being able to marry, use of contraception and women becoming priests or playing a greater role in the Church.

Either way you'll never find a rational answer for something that is an abhorrent act. As much as we'd like to have it......we never will.

[jhale667]

The Church is clinging on to it's outdated traditions and the results are less priests answering the calling and less people attending church, as far as Catholics are concerned.

Odd that rather than examine what they're doing WRONG to cause this, their answer is (or was in our case) to try to guilt poor kids into "answering the call" they weren't hearing... it's not someone's obligation to join the priesthood, but you wouldn't have known that listening to some of the speakers they brought in at that time! It was offensive.

[Nitro Express]

Honestly. Think about it. What kind of person would give up women, to hang with other men who gave up women or ugly women who gave up men? Then you get to wear funny clothes and funny hats and scare people that there is a invisible man in the sky that watches everything you do and if you don't do what he wants you to do, this big red guy with horns who lives under ground will have the glee of torturing you for all eternity. Then to get the golden ticket you have to pay the guys in the funny hats lots of money and do whatever they tell you to do. Don't you think these sicko homos on a power trip would be the kind of people who fuck kids up the ass?

[kwame k]

Odd that rather than examine what they're doing WRONG to cause this, their answer is (or was in our case) to try to guilt poor kids into "answering the call" they weren't hearing... it's not someone's obligation to join the priesthood, but you wouldn't have known that listening to some of the speakers they brought in at that time! It was offensive.

Yeah, I had the same guilt trip.....when asked if I'd consider being a priest I starting laughing.....maybe not a good answer but they got the gist

As many people have pointed out numerous times before.....priests were allowed to marry and did for many centuries....it wasn't until they figured out that by having no heirs, meant the Church got to keep all the profits, that the celibacy thing took root.

Most practicing Catholics defy the Pope's or the Church's teachings anyways. 80% of sexually active people use some form of contraception [industrialize nations].

Is there a link between celibacy and pedophiles? Probably........although if you look at most sexual predators they are by no means celibate so the question is kinda circular.