How America's Catholic Church crucified itself

[bueno bob]

Wake me up when Peter II takes the stage...

[FORD]

Originally posted by bueno bob
Wake me up when Peter II takes the stage...

Probably won't be much longer. Nobody expects Ratzinger to be a long termer.

[Golden AWe]

This is a strange thread. Some of the people who seem to be amongst the smartest on this site are now preaching of Jesus here.

What the HELL made you decide whether it's ok for a person to decide for him-/herself? Is it really wrong to explore and search a bit? Then, a basic question, how about the rest of the religions, going to burn as well, just because they do not believe in Jesus?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Then, a basic question, how about the rest of the religions, going to burn as well, just because they do not believe in Jesus?

This is definitely an area where I break with so-called "organized religion". I refuse to believe, for example, that Pat Robertson, who shits all over the teachings of Christ daily and makes money doing so, is going to Heaven, yet Ghandi is burning in Hell for the "sin" of merely being a Hindu because he was born in India.

Ghandi himself actually said "I like your Christ, but I can't say the same about some of your Christians"

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by FORD
This is definitely an area where I break with so-called "organized religion". I refuse to believe, for example, that Pat Robertson, who shits all over the teachings of Christ daily and makes money doing so, is going to Heaven, yet Ghandi is burning in Hell for the "sin" of merely being a Hindu because he was born in India.

Ghandi himself actually said "I like your Christ, but I can't say the same about some of your Christians"

Do you believe that we really have a soul, or isn't it just a mix of chemical ingredients and basic cells that have proceeded and evolved through the years? Do animals have a soul? Why, or why not?

EDIT: HAHAHAHA!!!

I have thousands of songs on my iTunes and the random playlist shuffles on to "HELL'S BELLS" just as we speak!!!

HAHAHAHAHAH

I'm about to burn fer shure...

[Nitro Express]

I look at religion across the board. I like the golen rule Jesus taught.

The thing is, who knows if Jesus even really taught that or if he even existed because the gosphels in the New Testiment were written much later. Someone could have made up the whole thing or based it on a real person but superheroed the account.

Does that matter? It's the idea that counts isn't it. So I don't believe any organized religion is going to do anything special for you membership wise. It's how you apply ethical teachings in your life.

[WARF]

I'm gonna break this down from what I've gathered.

God = Father

Jesus = Son

Anyone who accepts Jesus as god, by the mouth and heart will be saved.... (Catholics, Born Again Christians, Lutherians etc etc)

When you accept this god gives you a spirit.

When you recieve this spirit, you are now one of GOD'S CHILDREN.

So if Jesus is the son of god... and those who believe are the children of god... doesn't that make Jesus our brother?

So just like Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins... he gives us the power of prayer to forgive others!

So what does that mean?

I think us Christians have the power to forgive others into heaven!

But then again... we are just the jury in god's court.

God is the final judge,

[ELVIS]

Catholicism vs Christianity

Comparison of Beliefs



Jesus the Savior:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

RCC teaches that “by His death and resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us” (1026). Each person attains his own salvation by grace and by the Holy Spirit, good works (1477).



Jesus the Redeemer:
1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

RCC teaches that Mary is the sinless co- Redeemer. “Without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and work of her son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with Him…being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race" (494).

Jesus the Redeemer: Jesus our Advocate and only Mediator:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

RCC teaches that Mary “did not lay aside [her] saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” She “is ...Advocate… and Mediatrix” (969).

Jesus, Head of the Church:
Ephesians 1:22-23
And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

RCC teaches that the Pope, “by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has Full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise un-hindered” (882). He exercises infallibility when “he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (891).

Jesus the soon-coming King:
Acts 1:11
and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

RCC denies this by teaching that Jesus returns daily to the altars of Catholic churches to be worshipped: “The body and blood…soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ…is truly, really and substantially contained" in the Eucharist (1374-1378)

Christ's Work
Jesus is the propitiation for our sin
1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

RCC teaches that sins are expiated (forgiven) in purgatory through “a cleansing fire” and that we “must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace" (1030, 31; 1472-75)

Jesus finished the work of redemption
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hebrews 7:27-28
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

RCC denies it is finished. “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice…the same Christ who offered Himself once in bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner" (1367). “Every time this mystery is celebrated the work of our redemption is carried on" (1405). The sacrifice is “offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead" (1414)

His life, death, and resurrection provide the only way to be saved
Acts 4:12
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.”

RCC denies this by claiming the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation" (846) and claiming “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

His shed blood is the only remission for sins
Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 10:18
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

RCC teaches “an indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose Guilt has already been forgiven, which…may be applied to the living or the dead" (1471).

Jesus cleanses us from sin
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

RCC teaches that “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (1030).

Doctrine of Salvation
Salvation is proclaimed in the Gospel
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

RCC preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirements for salvation, including: the Sacraments (1129), meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030), indulgences (1498), and baptism (1256).

Salvation is of God, not man
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation— having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
John 1:13
who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

RCC teaches “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration ... without which no one can enter the Kingdom of God" (1213, 1215)

Salvation is through faith, not works
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Psalms 49:7-8
No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him— For the redemption of his soul is costly, and he should cease trying forever—

RCC teaches salvation through faith plus works. People can obtain their own salvation and at the same time cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences (1477, 1479).

Salvation is by grace, not merit
Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

RCC denies justifying grace is undeserved: “We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life” (2027)

Salvation rejected is Hell
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

RCC teaches that “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer…eternal fire" (1035)



Hmmm...

Catholicism is not Christianity...

[WARF]

ELVIS your gonna drive yourself insane doing all this research!

Most catholics are saved and they don't even know it.

It's not a question of what religion your associated with...

It's about whether or not you accept Jesus into your life!

[WARF]

And you can't be saved from just acknowleding Jesus as god.
Satan knows Jesus is god too.... and Satan's not going into heaven.
I was agnostic most of my life.
I originally was raised catholic... but I found church very boring.
As time rolled by little by little... I was gettin' pulled more and more into a LIE in which I believed to be reality.
I used to fucking hate GOD as a matter of fact.
I thought all Christians were arrogant and hypocrites.
Just as I have heard some say here.
I almost died THREE times.
And when I say THREE... I mean exactly three times.
From these near death experiences... I can tell you I believe!
Cuz I have seen god with my own eyes.
So I really don't fucking care what other people think...
I wanted proof he existed and I got my wish...
How I drove 100 mph into a wall and lived is beyond me...
But I am still here...lol
I went from the biggest skeptic in the world to instant believer.
Sounds fucking crazy... but it is true.

[ELVIS]

Dude, the fact that the Catholic church has certain "requirements" for salvation beyond what the Bible says, and that People can obtain their own salvation, and also save their brothers through good works and indulgences is not Christianity...

It makes believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that Jesus Christ is lord, null and void...

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8)

WARF, read what I posted...

If you know anything about Catholicism, you will recognize that what I posted is true...

And you cannot be saved and not know it!!

C'mon brother, I think maybe you have alot of Catholics in your family, and maybe some friends and are afraid to offend them...

The best thing you can do for them is shed some light onto their path...

[Seshmeister]

[ELVIS]

Jesus said to them,

"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 8:42-47

[Seshmeister]

No.

Someone betwwen 60 and 110 years later in a book now called the gospel of John wrote that Jesus said that.

[WARF]

Originally posted by ELVIS

If you know anything about Catholicism, you will recognize that what I posted is true...

And you cannot be saved and not know it!!

C'mon brother, I think maybe you have alot of Catholics in your family, and maybe some friends and are afraid to offend them...

The best thing you can do for them is shed some light onto their path...

That's bullshit, ELVIS and you know it.

Anyone who accepts Jesus into their heart, and confesses it by mouth will go into heaven... plain and simple...

The main thing that pisses me off about organized religion is that some people have the arrogant hollier than thou attitude!

How are you supposed to get your message across by putting people down, or thinking you're better than them?

Point out one part of the bible that says Catholics won't go to heaven?

And I'll show a hundred places where it states, "Through Jesus you will be saved."