Do you fuckers still think handguns are so cool now?

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
� In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted �5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.
[/i]

Did you highlight this so that I would remember to post for the fucking 5th time the details of this case.

Ok...jeez.

Martin shot a kid in the back while he was running away with an unlicensed gun and then lied to the police about what had happened.

On appeal he got 5 years and served 3.

Your article is tyypical cut and paste bullshit from the gun lobby.

Explain the fact that the US murder rate is so much higher than any civilised country.

Most murders are done in the heat of the moment. If you have a gun to hand someone gets killed if you don't they get a punch in the face.

[stilleddiesangel]

As Sesh said, we in the UK have banned handguns and personally, that suits me fine. It's not the law abiding gun owners of the world that bothers me, it's when kids find them and get hold of them, and they do.. frequently... and with tragic results.. When I worked in the states my bosses six year old son found his. I caught him playing with it.. scary shit.

Guns desensitise the holder, it's easy to pull a trigger, there's no personal contact, it's harder to take a knife and stab someone.. it means physical contact...

[The Scatologist]

The reason a gun is much different then a knife is because of the amount of advantage it can give someone.


A guy with a knife still has a chance of being taken down by just one guy. The report said that there were other people in the room with them. You really think it would have been just as easy with a friggin knife?


Now when the guy had a handgun, there could have been 10 other people in that room, and they wouldn't have been able to do shit, cause they don't wanna be the guy to get shot in the face for trying to stop him. Not to mention, he woulda just pulled the trigger on the girl's face first, then turned the gun around on the guy.

[Nickdfresh]

True. It would have been difficult to have conducted the Columbine massacre with a meat cleaver.

You know, I get kind of upset with this, I once worked as a teacher's aide in a local high school district I currently live in. After I left, it hit the news that three local teens were planning a similar school shooting, and that one of the teens was going to take a high powered rifle and pick off the cops as they came! It was discovered because some of their classmates got wind of it and turned them in. They all received youth detention, and one of the little bastards' parents even tried to make the school let him attend prom and graduate with his class, but I think they had to move because of threats, I don't know. Things like that really change your perspective.

[TLR]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
True to a point, but....

A car never killed anyone, IT'S THE FUCKING STUPID SHIT DRIVERS! So, let's let everyone go out a buy one regardless of age, mental state, past driving records, or whatever! Why have driver's licences? Why make kids take roadtests! They're impeding on freedom damnit! Every American should be able to waltz into a dealer and purchase a car without insurance or a licence. After all, that's personal liberty isn't it?

I don't remember saying anything about allowing ANYONE to purchase a handgun, did I? I said I (personally...me, myself and I) have the right to own guns and I do. Period. You are taking liberties with what I said. I stand by what I said about people, not guns, being responsible for the killing. That applies to ANYTHING one chooses to use as a weapon. Someone could drown you playing "Marco Polo." Maybe we should outlaw swimming pools...

[The Scatologist]

By your logic, people, not nukes, destroy cities, and anyone should be allowed to have possession of nuclear weapons.


Boy you sure are dumb.

[Big Train]

Scat,

I will try to be nice and say you are missing the point here. These arguments get very circular. Nobody is saying anybody SHOULD have anything or that reasonable restrictions should not be in place, as they are.

People pull the trigger, stab the knife, shoot the catapult etc...The degree in which tradegy happens obviously is in relation to the intensity of the weapon. People still are the root cause. That's the real core issue of the gun issue: the people.

If it was only about the weapons, nobody would have ever been harmed by bags of garden fertiziler. It was due to people with evil intentions that made mass problems out of a simple tool to beautify the home. That may be too simple an analogy for you, but it's true. A gun is just a simpler, more direct version, but in certain cases, Columbine for example, fertilizer used correctly could have caused damage on a much more horrific scale.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by TLR
I don't remember saying anything about allowing ANYONE to purchase a handgun, did I? I said I (personally...me, myself and I) have the right to own guns and I do. Period. You are taking liberties with what I said. I stand by what I said about people, not guns, being responsible for the killing. That applies to ANYTHING one chooses to use as a weapon. Someone could drown you playing "Marco Polo." Maybe we should outlaw swimming pools...

My comments were not aimed at you personally. I am sure that you are, as am I, a responsible gun owner.

But I have a serious beef with over-zealous gun advocates that proclaim that a gun is merely a tool. An item that requires about as many government restrictions as a Dewalt 12-volt cordless drill. I believe that analogy to be false.

[Nitro Express]

Fuck. I don't know why people always finger the United States and give us shit over our Constitutional right to own firearms. The United States is far from being the old west. If you live in New York City, owning any type of firearm is highly regulated. Every state and city is different. If you really want to live in the old west again, move to Yemen. You can buy a Kalashnikov for $25 US dollars and having an assult rifle is a symbol of your manhood. You can get gold plated Kalashnikovs as well for a boost of your social status. Oh yeah, grenades of variouse kinds are available at the local market as well. Small grenades are popular in Afganistahn for fishing. Fuck the pole and worms, they just chuck in a lemonhead grenade and toss it into the fishing hole.

The Wyoming fish and game, The Sierra Club, the U.S. Forrest Service, and the FBI would hang me up by my nuts if I tried such a trick here in the United States. My mom can remember when my grandad used to go down to the local farmers co-op to buy dynamite to blow stumps out of the ground with. Now you can't just run down to the store and buy dynamite. Shit, you hardly can buy good ammonium nitrate fertilizer anymore since Timothy McViegh made his little bomb.

The last time I bought a handgun, I had to fill out the BATF form and wait for the clerk to call the FBI database. Apparently I'm in good standing because I was able to buy the gun. Of course I could legally buy a used gun from someone selling one in the local want ads with no paper trail.

Smart people don't sell their guns that way anymore. By doing so, you invite criminals to your home who cannot purchase a gun through the retail stores. If you purchased the gun, it's still registered to you and if the person you sold it to uses it in a crime, you are in deep legal trouble because as far as the papertrail is concerned, it's still your gun. No, smart people sell their guns through licensed gun dealers on consignment. That way the purchaser has to fill out a new BATF form and the serial number on that gun now becomes their responsibility.

Yeah, sure, we can make the gun laws even stricter, but doing so won't change anything. Most gun owners in the United States are responsible. A hell of a lot more responsible than most people driving cars on the road. By the way, five times more children drown in five gallon buckets than die from guns. Sure, gun crimes are menacing and guns are dangerouse. But cars are dangerouse, gasoline is dangerouse, chain saws are dangerouse, kitchen knifes are dangerouse.

My niece drowned in my sisters backyard pool. It was a horrible tragedy and happened because someone let their guard down for just a few minutes. The little girl fell in and couldn't swim, by the time someone realized there was nodody on the back patio it was too late. Should we ban backyard pools?

[The Scatologist]

I always find it foolish when people try to compare gun's, a weapon designed to be well, a weapon, to things such as a backyard pool.

You know what REALLY makes a gun dangerous? It's the fact that it is a GUN. It doesn't fucking matter if you can just cook up home made bombs with fertilizer. The problem is that as long as handguns are legal,hotheads and morons will always use them in inappropiate ways.

To many cowards, a handgun is like a tool to get their way. You really think that guy who shot the girl in the head would have had the balls to do that if he didn't have a gun?

When was the last time you heard of someone killing someone with a backyard pool intentionally? Sure, it happens in a few freak cases, but theres all kinds of murder everywhere.



Also, imagine a different scenario. What if your niece, would have found a handgun instead and accidentally shot herself, which happens.
You would not even have a excuse for that.

Yes, i'm willing to bet that you MIGHT be a responsible person, however, we ALL slip up sometimes, and just because YOU are responsible, does not mean everyone else is.


There IS a reason why every responsible person is not allowed to have a nuke in their backyard or anthrax cooking in the kitchen you know.



Oh, about Yemen and Afghanistan, Yes, I'm sure they are VERY good example of how life in this country should be like

[jacksmar]

McALLEN, TEXAS -- Sitting behind a glass counter that held gold pieces, silver coins and antique watches in his shop, Harold Falknor said Thursday that he could not eat nor sleep after fatally shooting a 36-year-old hold-up man the day before.

The 64-year-old coin shop proprietor who Wednesday shot to death a fleeing robbery suspect in front of his store said partial motivation for his actions came only because he's been held up before and survived being shot during that previous robbery of La Casa Coin Co.

"If a person cannot defend himself in this world, it's not worth living in," he said.

Falknor recounted how 12 years ago three "white Aryan Nation people" entered his store, which was then located near 10th and Pecan Street, and robbed him at gunpoint.

After collecting their loot, they ordered him to lie face down on the floor. They then shot him in the head with a .22-caliber gun above his right ear, fracturing his mastoid bone, he said.

"The bullet went through and into the floor," he said, recalling a hole that remained in the floor of his shop after the incident.

He said doctors could not explain how he lived through the trauma, other that that he was lucky. Falknor said jokingly that the reason for his survival could have been his "hard, German head."

Joking aside, the events of 12 years ago caused him to install an electronic lock on that shop's front door so he could screen customers before they entered, he said.

But the front door of his shop at 104 N. 10th St., which he moved to just last year, only uses a standard bolt lock, which remained open for customers Thursday afternoon.

"The first thing I thought (Wednesday), I said to myself, Oh, no, not again. This can't be happening again,'" he said. "I feared for my life like I never feared before."

Falknor said the hold-up man had come into the store approximately 30 minutes before the shooting to inquire about the price of gold pesos.

After some haggling over the deal, the man left, only to return soon afterward with a handgun, Falknor said.

"He put the gun to my head and said in Spanish that he was going to shoot me in the groin and take everything in my back room," Falknor recounted. "He parked right here in front and I knew he was going to book it."

After the man fled the shop, Falknor said he went to find his .38 Police Special -- a gun he has kept within his places of business for more than 30 years -- from behind a shelf. Then he followed the perpetrator into the parking lot.

"I wasn't thinking anything, really. I should have felt relieved that I was still alive, but I just followed him out and shot him," he said.

Watching the getaway van reverse out of its parking space, Falknor said he saw the man stop his vehicle and reach down between his legs, as if for a gun. He said it was that move that changed his aim from the van's tires to the robber himself -- a deed he isn't proud of.

"You can't take a man's life just like that. But I had no idea it was going to come down to something like this -- you don't preplan this," he said.

Released by police about four hours after the midday shooting with no charges against him, Falknor said he has since received "over 1,000 phone calls" from concerned residents and business owners, most of whom are well-wishers.

Sitting in the shop Thursday were plants that had been sent over by friends, one of which sported an American flag.

"I don't know who gets the idea that I'm in the wrong -- I know there's a dead person out there and I feel very sorry about that -- but once you pull the trigger, that's it, there's no turning back," he said. "The reason I'm sitting here right now is because they found the stolen goods and three guns in his van."

Police confirmed Thursday that they had found evidence in the van which corroborated Falknor's account of the robbery, but would not confirm that they had found three guns in the vehicle.

Meanwhile, Falknor said La Casa Coin would continue to be open for business, with only an alarm for security until he gets his gun back from police.

Fear of another attack still affects him, he said, but financial constraints force him to keep going.

"If they want to rob somebody, they're going to rob somebody," he said. "But I'm pinching. I have to make a living."

---------
JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA -- Police said a neighbor shot a teenage neighbor inside at an Arlington apartment complex Friday afternoon.

Robert Johnson came home from work about 3 p.m. and noticed that the sliding glass door of his Oak Hill apartment was open.

"He scared me. I ran outside and got my handgun," Johnson told Channel 4. "I didn't know who was in the house at the time, so I shot him."

The teen was taken to Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center with a bullet wound to his thigh. Police said he will face burglary charges when he gets out of the hospital.

Police don't expect to file charges against Johnson.

---------------

Woman Who Once Thought "Guns are Bad" Kills Would-be Rapist

Like most women in this country, I was raised to be a victim. When the existence of guns would come up in my family, I was always told that "guns are bad" and that "only bad people would want to own a gun." I believed it... and that simple mistake has changed my life forever.

When I was a junior in college, I was brutally raped. As I had always been taught by the so-called experts, I didn't resist very strenuously, believing that I would only be hurt worse for fighting back. And I was lucky. No one had ever mentioned that a large portion of rapists kill their victims. Perhaps my living was an oversight, since I have been told that I very nearly bled to death from the personal injuries from the rape. I was lucky to live through a very painful recovery, and being reminded of my violation almost every time I went to the bathroom. I was lucky, because I lived to have almost five years of almost nightly waking up screaming. I was lucky to live. Many women are not so lucky.

And of course, I spent much of those five years playing mind games with myself, wondering what I did to invite the attack, what I could have done to abate or even deter it. And the worst part of it... the very WORST part of all of it... the infuriating knowledge that I did NOTHING to stop it. My rapist most likely continued on to do similar to other women after me. And I didn't do a damn thing to stop it. To this day, I have a hard time facing that knowledge. I consulted with various counselors and psychologists for a while, trying to "work through my rape-related misplaced guilt." Reliably, every counselor assured me that "there was nothing you could have done..." and that anything the rapist did after my own rape "is not my fault." Again, I was being trained to play the victim.

After five years of continuing nightmares, and finding no comfort in being "reassured" that, effectively, I really was as helpless as I felt, I began on my own to look into what I could have done. I took several "women's self-defense" classes, in which the strongest countermeasure taught was a chorus-line kick to the groin. As one of the few things I had tried during my rape, I can speak from experience that it only seemed to make my own rapist more excited. I was beginning to think that maybe everyone was right; maybe there is nothing a woman can do to protect herself from predators. In many ways, I felt more helpless than ever.

About six months ago, a small sign appeared at the local gym offering a free "two day self-defense seminar." I had little faith, but being free of cost and myself being free the requisite Friday and Saturday, I called the number and signed up. After going through the standard "don't walk dark alleys, lock yours doors, etc." speeches, the seminar turned to presenting guns as a viable defense. Had I known at the onset that this seminar would present guns in a positive light, I honestly would have never signed up - after all, guns are bad! Mostly out of politeness, I decided to stay to the next break rather than walking out. By the time the break came, I no longer wanted to leave. Here, at last, was a REAL way that I could have made a difference, not only to myself, but to any victims after me.

Over the next week, most of my free thought was involved in doing the soul-searching advised in the seminar - Could I REALLY pull the trigger against another person? If you knew more of the details of my own ordeal, you would understand why I found myself filling out an application for concealed carry shortly after. I had joined the "evil gun owners." If nothing else, at least I could now go down fighting instead of pleading for my life. While still very bad when they occurred, my nightmares finally began to come less often. While they had previously been reenactments of my rape, they now had become not being able to get to my safely locked gun in time. I began to unlock my handgun each night before going to bed. Seemingly paranoid or not, I felt safer doing so, and feeling safe has not been a common thing for me in the past few years.

Very sadly, about two months ago, I was awakened to the sound of something falling over in my apartment. I had almost gone back to sleep thinking it was the cat when I heard the door of my bedroom opening wider. As I had learned in the seminar, and subsequently drilled into my head, I was quickly propelled through my escalation sequence : I drew my handgun, and issued a single command to "freeze where you are." When the intruder not only continued to approach, but made a rude comment about what he was going to do to me, I double checked my aim squarely on his chest. As he crossed the "imminent threat distance," I was forced to pull the trigger. All told, it took two additional shots before he fully understood how seriously I was determined to stop him.

I have since been cleared of all charges (it WAS self defense, and perhaps surprisingly, the cops agreed). My nightmares have almost disappeared (I once dreamt of running out of ammo... but I still take this as a huge improvement!). While I have some guilt about having to shoot someone, I have never once regretted it. While this may seem vain or even sick to you, I will even admit to feeling something akin to pride for not only protecting myself, but also stopping one rapist permanently.

If you are a woman, please do not buy into the culture of learned helplessness, and please do NOT believe the lies about guns. They are the ONLY thing which empowers a woman sufficiently enough to protect herself against a violent attacker. If you think living with defensive homicide would be worse than being raped, you have clearly never had to walk that dark road - as someone who has, please learn from my own experiences before duplicating them.

If you are a man or a parent, please encourage the women in your life to seriously consider more serious protection than a cooking spice. Train yourself in the use of guns, and train any other members of your family and friends who are willing to accept responsibility. Remember, I would gladly replace my current "Never again" with "Never AT ALL" any day.

[Seshmeister]

FACT:In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.

FACT: In 2002, there were 1,231 gun deaths in the state of Illinois, a 5% decrease from 2001 Illinois gun deaths. The 2002 Illinois gun deaths included:

728 homicides (59% of all IL gun deaths),
466 suicides (38% of all IL gun deaths),
and 17 unintentional shootings, 6 legal intervention, and 14 of undetermined intent (3% of all IL gun deaths combined).
-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.

FACT: Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 56% of total 2002 gun deaths nationwide. In 2002, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,108, a 1% increase from 2001 numbers. Total gun suicides in Illinois for 2002 were 466, a decrease of 8% from the 2001 numbers. Most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms.
-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used to commit a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than to be used in self-defense.
-A Kellerman, et al. Journal of Trauma, August 1998; Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu.Rev Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40.)

FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)

FACT: Contrary to popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3-to-4-year-olds, 70% of 5-to-6-year-olds, and 90% of 7-to-8-year-olds can fire most handguns.
-Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995.

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence


FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.

- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

FACT: Contrary to popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3 to 4 year olds, 70% of 5 to 6 year olds, and 90% of 7 to 8 year olds can fire most handguns.

- Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995

FACT: Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries.

- Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40

[jacksmar]

http://www.nraam.org/

[Seshmeister]

http://www.iovercompensateforhavingasmallpenis.com

[conmee]

More than a gun debate, what caught my eye in the original post was "housing project" and "schizophrenic" and "served a year in prison" and a 15 year old girl having both a 21 year old female friend, and obviously, regular social interaction with a non-family member 21 year old mentally-ill, ex-con, male.

This is a gun issue, only indirectly. The more important issue for the U.S. is that "housing projects" are home to mentally ill/disabled folks/criminals (who knew? lol) instead of affordable health care facilities, and proof again that prison time is very rarely a place for criminals and mentally disturbed folks to be rehabilitated. Without adequate therapy and treatment and support, prisons only harden criminals, for the most part, and make them even more pissed off and ready to take out there frustrations on society.

And of course, only after the health-care, affordable housing, responsible parenting, reformed prison system issues are tackled, THEN we can get to the issue of a handgun being used to end a life.

A guy like this shouldn't have been able to acquire a handgun in the first place. But you know what? He did, and he was able to circumvent existing laws, because that's what criminals do, especially when they have no healthcare support and no guidance, and stop taking their medicine. And even going so far as to ban handguns entirely won't keep criminals from acquiring them. The only real solution is to stop the manufacture, distribution, and sale of handguns, and to confiscate all existing handguns out there. But you do that, and the only folks left with guns are the government and the criminals. I'm not as paranoid as FORD , but I'm not sure that scenario would make me feel safer than I do today.

Icon.