President Obama's Nowruz message to Iranian people

[hideyoursheep]

I think as long as Obama extends the olive branch first, it takes some of the air out of Ahmadinejad's sails a little bit...

Then, the US don't come off as a bully if it has to lay the smackdown on Iran in some form, whatever it might be.

[Blaze]

http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/en/merry-christmas-to-everyone

Merry Christmas to everyone! 2006/12/21
In the Name of Almighty God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate





Merry Christmas to everyone!

My sincere congratulations to everyone for the Glorious and Auspicious Birthday of Divine Prophet - confirmed and authenticated by Gabriel, the angel of Divine revelation - the Obedient of Almighty God,

Jesus Christ, the Messiah (peace be upon Him)



He was a messenger of peace, devotion and love based upon monotheism and justice. He was raised in His Mother’s hand – Virgin Mary (peace be upon her) – that Almighty God stood her as impeccable and exalted her above the women of the world. The Mother and the Son that in the Divine Sight are reputable and prestigious. And they are positioned by God – The All Wise- at a sublime level.



There’s no doubt, after God – the Peerless Creator, the Beneficent, the Merciful – created the human beings, did not forsake them on their own. By sending and assigning the emissaries – prophets and messengers - along with the righteous individuals, and on top of that, by providing and utilizing the mankind with the gifts of intellect and human nature, they are guided in the right path – in order to achieve the complete perfection. The human generations – one after another – were not created to live in anguish, intimidation, skirmish, aggression, oppression, and misery. And without enjoying an amity and fraternity atmosphere - replete of love and justice – depart this life and leave it for the next generations.



The philosophy of human creation is: reaching the pinnacle of bliss, construction of immaculate life, efflorescence of all potentialities and talents, implementation of justice and devotion across the world amongst all human beings. This is one of the definite Divine promises that when the world is filled with oppression and enmity by the tyrants and oppressors, it will become full of justice by the reappearance of the promised Savior. All the Divine Prophets have clearly anounced this fact.



Unfortunately during the history, some egoistic and tyrant individuals have existed that stood against the convocations and the sermons of the Divine Prophets. And these tyrants and oppressors were the causation of all the adversities and the originator of all wars and animosities.



Today’s status quo of the world is obvious of everyone. In occupied Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, and South America and even in Europe and North America, due to the interests of despotic dominant rulers’ parties and clans and also for filling up their pockets, the dignity, benevolence, peace and tranquility of the human beings have been taken to abattoir and slaughtered. And then, lie and deception are positioned for honesty and truth.



Many peoples are exasperated from the present situation of the world. And they have come to the conclusion that the existed procedure, method and technique can not provide tranquilly and peace to the mankind.



Frankly, if Jesus Christ – the Messiah (peace be upon Him) was present today, how would He react? And whom would He stand with and against?



If Jesus Christ (peace be upon Him) was present today, he would order an encounter against those who would propagate corruption, obscenity and perversion, and try to nullify and exterminate the merits and the rights of women and diminish their position – a position that virgin Mary (peace be upon Her) – is their role model and sample.



If Jesus Christ (peace be upon Him) was present today, He would order a contention against those who try to discharge the world from morality, spirituality, intellectuality, justice, and peace. And accordingly, the true followers of the Divine Prophets would follow their steps in regard to strengthening the morality, intellectuality, spirituality, peace and justice in the world.



Although last year was accompanied with many injustices, aggressions, and many violation of rights, but the calls and outcries of begging and imploring from God and demanding justice were louder. Day by day, nations would realize the power of faith and godliness. They would go for peace and justice more than before and give a positive answer to the Divine prophets’ sermons and would tell to their Creator – Almighty God “Here am I!” Praise the Lord!



The same way that Jesus Christ (peace be upon Him) invited the people to goodness and perfection, and also avoid them from evil, atrocity and aggression, His true followers do the same. With the belief in God and the Hereafter, they are frontiers in righteousness.



Certainly, the implementation of the Divine Prophets’ commands and directions would reform and improve our lives in this world and would safeguard a satisfying afterlife conjunctionally.



We believe that the beloved Jesus Christ – the Messiah (peace be upon Him and His Mother) would also reappear for the fulfillment of the promises of all the Divine prophets. And together – accompanying the invited of the nations – would bring all the beauties and goodness for humanity of the world. And we are getting close to that date.



While commemorating the birthday of the Prophet of amity, love and devotion – Jesus Christ, the Messiah (peace be upon Him and His beloved Mother) and congratulating the new year, I beg God – the Merciful, the All-Wise – a year of bliss, and health and a year replete of blessing, abundance, success, and affection for everyone, specially the Christian of Iran and the world.

[Blaze]

Message to the American People 2006/11/28
In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

O, Almighty God, bestow upon humanity the perfect human being promised to all by You, and make us among his followers.

Noble Americans,

Were we not faced with the activities of the US administration in this part of the world and the negative ramifications of those activities on the daily lives of our peoples, coupled with the many wars and calamities caused by the US administration as well as the tragic consequences of US interference in other countries;

Were the American people not God-fearing, truth-loving, and justice-seeking , while the US administration actively conceals the truth and impedes any objective portrayal of current realities;

And if we did not share a common responsibility to promote and protect freedom and human dignity and integrity;

Then, there would have been little urgency to have a dialogue with you.

While Divine providence has placed Iran and the United States geographically far apart, we should be cognizant that human values and our common human spirit, which proclaim the dignity and exalted worth of all human beings, have brought our two great nations of Iran and the United States closer together.

Both our nations are God-fearing, truth-loving and justice-seeking, and both seek dignity, respect and perfection.

Both greatly value and readily embrace the promotion of human ideals such as compassion, empathy, respect for the rights of human beings, securing justice and equity, and defending the innocent and the weak against oppressors and bullies.

We are all inclined towards the good, and towards extending a helping hand to one another, particularly to those in need.

We all deplore injustice, the trampling of peoples' rights and the intimidation and humiliation of human beings.

We all detest darkness, deceit, lies and distortion, and seek and admire salvation, enlightenment, sincerity and honesty.

The pure human essence of the two great nations of Iran and the United States testify to the veracity of these statements.

Noble Americans,

Our nation has always extended its hand of friendship to all other nations of the world.

Hundreds of thousands of my Iranian compatriots are living amongst you in friendship and peace, and are contributing positively to your society. Our people have been in contact with you over the past many years and have maintained these contacts despite the unnecessary restrictions of US authorities.

As mentioned, we have common concerns, face similar challenges, and are pained by the sufferings and afflictions in the world.

We, like you, are aggrieved by the ever-worsening pain and misery of the Palestinian people. Persistent aggressions by the Zionists are making life more and more difficult for the rightful owners of the land of Palestine . In broad day-light, in front of cameras and before the eyes of the world, they are bombarding innocent defenseless civilians, bulldozing houses, firing machine guns at students in the streets and alleys, and subjecting their families to endless grief.

No day goes by without a new crime.

Palestinian mothers, just like Iranian and American mothers, love their children, and are painfully bereaved by the imprisonment, wounding and murder of their children. What mother wouldn't?

For 60 years, the Zionist regime has driven millions of the inhabitants of Palestine out of their homes. Many of these refugees have died in the Diaspora and in refugee camps. Their children have spent their youth in these camps and are aging while still in the hope of returning to homeland.

You know well that the US administration has persistently provided blind and blanket support to the Zionist regime, has emboldened it to continue its crimes, and has prevented the UN Security Council from condemning it.

Who can deny such broken promises and grave injustices towards humanity by the US administration?

Governments are there to serve their own people. No people wants to side with or support any oppressors. But regrettably, the US administration disregards even its own public opinion and remains in the forefront of supporting the trampling of the rights of the Palestinian people.

Let's take a look at Iraq . Since the commencement of the US military presence in Iraq , hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, maimed or displaced. Terrorism in Iraq has grown exponentially. With the presence of the US military in Iraq , nothing has been done to rebuild the ruins, to restore the infrastructure or to alleviate poverty. The US Government used the pretext of the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq , but later it became clear that that was just a lie and a deception.

Although Saddam was overthrown and people are happy about his departure, the pain and suffering of the Iraqi people has persisted and has even been aggravated.

In Iraq , about one hundred and fifty thousand American soldiers, separated from their families and loved ones, are operating under the command of the current US administration. A substantial number of them have been killed or wounded and their presence in Iraq has tarnished the image of the American people and government.

Their mothers and relatives have, on numerous occasions, displayed their discontent with the presence of their sons and daughters in a land thousands of miles away from US shores. American soldiers often wonder why they have been sent to Iraq .

I consider it extremely unlikely that you, the American people, consent to the billions of dollars of annual expenditure from your treasury for this military misadventure.

Noble Americans,

You have heard that the US administration is kidnapping its presumed opponents from across the globe and arbitrarily holding them without trial or any international supervision in horrendous prisons that it has established in various parts of the world. God knows who these detainees actually are, and what terrible fate awaits them.

You have certainly heard the sad stories of the Guantanamo and Abu-Ghraib prisons. The US administration attempts to justify them through its proclaimed “war on terror.” But every one knows that such behavior, in fact, offends global public opinion, exacerbates resentment and thereby spreads terrorism, and tarnishes the US image and its credibility among nations.

The US administration's illegal and immoral behavior is not even confined to outside its borders. You are witnessing daily that under the pretext of “the war on terror,” civil liberties in the United States are being increasingly curtailed. Even the privacy of individuals is fast losing its meaning. Judicial due process and fundamental rights are trampled upon. Private phones are tapped, suspects are arbitrarily arrested, sometimes beaten in the streets, or even shot to death.

I have no doubt that the American people do not approve of this behavior and indeed deplore it.

The US administration does not accept accountability before any organization, institution or council. The US administration has undermined the credibility of international organizations, particularly the United Nations and its Security Council. But, I do not intend to address all the challenges and calamities in this message.

The legitimacy, power and influence of a government do not emanate from its arsenals of tanks, fighter aircrafts, missiles or nuclear weapons. Legitimacy and influence reside in sound logic, quest for justice and compassion and empathy for all humanity. The global position of the United States is in all probability weakened because the administration has continued to resort to force, to conceal the truth, and to mislead the American people about its policies and practices.

Undoubtedly, the American people are not satisfied with this behavior and they showed their discontent in the recent elections. I hope that in the wake of the mid-term elections, the administration of President Bush will have heard and will heed the message of the American people.

My questions are the following:

Is there not a better approach to governance?

Is it not possible to put wealth and power in the service of peace, stability, prosperity and the happiness of all peoples through a commitment to justice and respect for the rights of all nations, instead of aggression and war?

We all condemn terrorism, because its victims are the innocent.

But, can terrorism be contained and eradicated through war, destruction and the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

If that were possible, then why has the problem not been resolved?

The sad experience of invading Iraq is before us all.

What has blind support for the Zionists by the US administration brought for the American people? It is regrettable that for the US administration, the interests of these occupiers supersedes the interests of the American people and of the other nations of the world.

What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the banking, financial, cultural and media sectors?

I recommend that in a demonstration of respect for the American people and for humanity, the right of Palestinians to live in their own homeland should be recognized so that millions of Palestinian refugees can return to their homes and the future of all of Palestine and its form of government be determined in a referendum. This will benefit everyone.

Now that Iraq has a Constitution and an independent Assembly and Government, would it not be more beneficial to bring the US officers and soldiers home, and to spend the astronomical US military expenditures in Iraq for the welfare and prosperity of the American people? As you know very well, many victims of Katrina continue to suffer, and countless Americans continue to live in poverty and homelessness.

I'd also like to say a word to the winners of the recent elections in the US :

The United States has had many administrations; some who have left a positive legacy, and others that are neither remembered fondly by the American people nor by other nations.

Now that you control an important branch of the US Government, you will also be held to account by the people and by history.

If the US Government meets the current domestic and external challenges with an approach based on truth and Justice, it can remedy some of the past afflictions and alleviate some of the global resentment and hatred of America . But if the approach remains the same, it would not be unexpected that the American people would similarly reject the new electoral winners, although the recent elections, rather than reflecting a victory, in reality point to the failure of the current administration's policies. These issues had been extensively dealt with in my letter to President Bush earlier this year.

To sum up:

It is possible to govern based on an approach that is distinctly different from one of coercion, force and injustice.

It is possible to sincerely serve and promote common human values, and honesty and compassion.

It is possible to provide welfare and prosperity without tension, threats, imposition or war.

It is possible to lead the world towards the aspired perfection by adhering to unity, monotheism, morality and spirituality and drawing upon the teachings of the Divine Prophets.

Then, the American people, who are God-fearing and followers of Divine religions, will overcome every difficulty.

What I stated represents some of my anxieties and concerns.

I am confident that you, the American people, will play an instrumental role in the establishment of justice and spirituality throughout the world. The promises of the Almighty and His prophets will certainly be realized; Justice and Truth will prevail and all nations will live a true life in a climate replete with love, compassion and fraternity.

The US governing establishment, the authorities and the powerful should not choose irreversible paths. As all prophets have taught us, injustice and transgression will eventually bring about decline and demise. Today, the path of return to faith and spirituality is open and unimpeded.

We should all heed the Divine Word of the Holy Qur'an:

“ But those who repent, have faith and do good may receive Salvation. Your Lord, alone, creates and chooses as He will, and others have no part in His choice; Glorified is God and Exalted above any partners they ascribe to Him. ” (28:67-68)

I pray to the Almighty to bless the Iranian and American nations and indeed all nations of the world with dignity and success.

http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/en/message-to-the-american-people/

[hideyoursheep]

..Says the guy whose country conducts public executions by hanging them from a construction crane... Well, whatever...we can't control what they do in their house.

All the U.S. needs to do is keep them in check, and it can be done through diplomacy.

[FORD]

Since when do Muslims refer to Jesus Christ as the Messiah?

They regard JC as a prophet, but they claim "Allah has no son".

[Blaze]

In Islam, Isa (Jesus) is also called the Messiah (Masih),[4] but like in Judaism he is not considered to be the literal physical Son of God.

Messiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[hideyoursheep]

They praise all the prophets whenever they mention them.

[FORD]

Thanks for the clarification. I'd always thought of "Messiah" as a Jewish concept, adapted by Christianity, as much of Judaism was. I knew that Islam was expecting a leader called the "Mahdi" in the "end times", and figured that was their version of the Messiah.

[Blaze]

Opps, I went to quote, oh well, Free the Tanks!

yea, Mahdi (lit. "the rightly guided one"), is Islamic tradition as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist. According to Islamic tradition, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi

Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jhale667]

Wonder why...

See you keep trying to dig deeper and deeper on things i really don't give a flying fuck to discuss with you.

OF COURSE you "don't give a flying fuck to discuss" because you're getting bitch-slapped all over the forum.

[Andy Taylor]

No, there are no specifics. Just generalizations that seem ever-morphing...

Not generalizations at all. It wouldn't be a generalisation for those who said even before the 'complications' you mention ever developed that the war would be a stupid idea. That's just being sensible.

Oh, so Kashmir is your fault? So were the Bombay attacks then...

I don't dispute that. As long as the Indian army resorts to torture against people who they say are their own citizens they should expect blowback at some point.

Oh, okay. Anyone whose opinion you disagree with is a "mainstreamer" now...

Near mainstreamer, which you certainly are. Not being mainstream would be acknowledging realities like the most powerful people on earth meeting not so much in secret and making plans for us all. Following all the 'complications' and details of the war is mainstream because the wars as a whole are a huge charade and so the details deserve not much more than a roll of the eye.

You see, this is where your bullshit contradictions fall apart. On the one had, us "bleeding heart" liberals are evil for wanting to spread democracy and self-determination. Geez, what a horrible things those are...

uhuh? And then you speak the truth in the next para...

But yet, you criticize when supported a dictator cunt in Iran up until 1979, one that was the sovereign, internationally recognized gov't. So, which is evil and which is good? The truth is that the US has rarely really tried to "democratize" anywhere and supported whatever dominant political hegemony would support us back...

Yes, that's the thing isn't it the democracy is a lie. But even well-intentioned libs ideas for 'self-determination' are all about meddling, backing their favourites (who are not popular among the citizens) and backed by the military. Explain your first line there again? You lost me there.

Incidentally, ironically the NeoCon fantasy of democracy-spreading at the point of a gun has its actual roots in leftist, Trotskyist revolutionary thought...

Am I a leftist now? I though libs were more toward the left.

Actually he is intensifying the bombing in the coming months I think....

BTW, your Indian gov't also supports the Northern Alliance which became the ineffectual Kabul city gov't we have now - and did so long before we did. Basically it was to piss off the Pakis you hate so much...BTW, great job at constantly invading them and bringing "democracy" to Bangladesh...

What's that got to do with me, I don't support the Indian govt much. As for invading, it's Pakistan that's always invaded India and not the other way round. And since Pakistan was a threat already (unlike the imaginary axis of evil) it was neccessary to break up East Pak.

I think he is learning, as the Surge has at least temporarily largely pacified Iraq, and I suspect that there will eventually be a two pronged counterinsurgency campaign that in no small part will include negotiations with certain factions within the Taliban...

Oh wonderful, now it's negotiating with the Taliban. The people who sheltered Ladin and were the reason for invading Afghanistan in the first place. We're really getting somewhere.

Of course. Why shouldn't they be the only extra-governmental paramilitary faction that effectively bullies and coerces the rest of the nation trying to become a representational democracy with a very fragile, diverse ethnic make-up. I mean, it's not like we'd expect the Lebanese national Army to guard the territorial integrity. But then, that would take the fun out of the Hezbollanese acting like they should be able to help provoke wars and randomly fire missiles into Israel. But of course, you failed to answer why the Iranians (and Syrians) should meddle in Lebanon anymore than the Israelis should meddle in the Territories...

And you can tell me a lot of things. But please don't try to sell me that the Arab and Farsi states give much of a fuck about the Palestinians. They just use them for lip service and distraction and piss on them like the Israelis do, and always have. It's sort of a great way to deflect their gov'ts basic incompetence and lack of real social mobility and pin all the blame on the 'evil-Jews'...

What did the Lebanese army do then anyway? I must say I didn't look into that, I always did wonder what happened to the Lebanese army at that point. But Hezbollah had been at war with Israel for years already so the rockets weren't random. I'm not in favour of Iran meddling in Lebanon and if I were Lebanese I would be pissed off.

I never said the states do, just the people. And more than half the ME isn't stagnant, the GCC countries are quite rich.

You're a hypocrite. Because you live off the very post-colonial society whose political system and policies you pretend to despise...

Live-off as in living here? I've just been here a short time; I never meant to come here I was en route to Canada (before I changed my mind about that place) and had limited alternatives.

It makes you a dick, because you hate it when I pick apart your arguments...

Lmfao... you wish.

Well, what system allowed for said culture? The democratic notion of freedom of speech. The fact remains that the Iranian masses are fed up and students launched protests that were brutally put down by the Iranian security forces. And continual polling suggests that they look more towards the West for their political future than the monkeys in charge...

I don't think certain aspects of American culture whether music or big macs need a particular system of govt to thrive. And democracy is not an American concept. I'm sure they would love a freer society but it's not as if they're tolerant or in awe of a hypocritical western style of government either...

[Nickdfresh]

Not generalizations at all. It wouldn't be a generalisation for those who said even before the 'complications' you mention ever developed that the war would be a stupid idea. That's just being sensible.

Firstly, thank you for using the quote function....

And there are no easy answers. But when you blindly blame one side and another a free pass, there are no answers ever...

I don't dispute that. As long as the Indian army resorts to torture against people who they say are their own citizens they should expect blowback at some point.

The Indian Army has their brutalities. But they also have to hold together a massive country filled with different ethnic groups and under attack by extremists supported by their long time friends in Pakistan...

Near mainstreamer, which you certainly are. Not being mainstream would be acknowledging realities like the most powerful people on earth meeting not so much in secret and making plans for us all. Following all the 'complications' and details of the war is mainstream because the wars as a whole are a huge charade and so the details deserve not much more than a roll of the eye.

I've never claimed to be anything but normal and somewhat mainstream (although most political "tests" put me somewhere between Chomsky and Abbie Hoffman).

And believing in unverifiable conspiracy speculation crap is just a crutch and is what ultimately leads to political self-emasculation. Most of it isn't supported by anything but speculations and bad science...

uhuh? And then you speak the truth in the next para...

Yes, that's the thing isn't it the democracy is a lie. But even well-intentioned libs ideas for 'self-determination' are all about meddling, backing their favourites (who are not popular among the citizens) and backed by the military. Explain your first line there again? You lost me there.

I lost you there because you cannot find a single example of where a "liberal" president tried to democratize a nation. We've meddled, but rarely until recently has it been for anything other than self-interest...

But feel free to explain, for example, to me how the president of Iraq is our "favorite" when he regularly meets with the Iranian leadership...

Am I a leftist now? I though libs were more toward the left.

They are. I don't know what you are other than a knee jerker that seeks to pin the blame on America without thinking closely about what would have been the alternatives. America is far from perfect, but it has attempted at least a thin veneer of "enlightened self-interest" as opposed to say China's, or the former Soviet Union's, blatant self-interest...

What's that got to do with me, I don't support the Indian govt much. As for invading, it's Pakistan that's always invaded India and not the other way round. And since Pakistan was a threat already (unlike the imaginary axis of evil) it was neccessary to break up East Pak.

Um what? The Indian Army initially took the offensive in the last two conflicts...and Indian "bleeding heart liberals" imposed their version of "democracy" on Pakistan by helping to evict them from Bangladesh and "imposing" their values on them (according to your world view)...

Oh wonderful, now it's negotiating with the Taliban. The people who sheltered Ladin and were the reason for invading Afghanistan in the first place. We're really getting somewhere.

Right! Just like we had to negotiate with Saddam's former minions. And not all Taliban were in agreement, nor was the Talubs and al Qaida one in the same...

What did the Lebanese army do then anyway? I must say I didn't look into that, I always did wonder what happened to the Lebanese army at that point. But Hezbollah had been at war with Israel for years already so the rockets weren't random. I'm not in favour of Iran meddling in Lebanon and if I were Lebanese I would be pissed off.

The Lebanese Army has only recently been able to gain some measure of credibility and was effectively intimidated by Hezbollah. That's slowly changing, but the specter of civil war has prevented them from being more aggressive as of yet...

Live-off as in living here? I've just been here a short time; I never meant to come here I was en route to Canada (before I changed my mind about that place) and had limited alternatives.

You're still on the arse of the colonialists sphere...

Lmfao... you wish.

An do...

I don't think certain aspects of American culture whether music or big macs need a particular system of govt to thrive. And democracy is not an American concept. I'm sure they would love a freer society but it's not as if they're tolerant or in awe of a hypocritical western style of government either...

But US pop-culture does lead inevitably to a consumerist system, for better or worse, and a wider cultural exchange and respect. Democracy wasn't invented by the United States, but it was modernized and refined. And many democracies are not based on the US model, such as in Europe. The population may not want a carbon copy US gov't, but they want a real democracy that is not just window dressing for the mullahs in control...

[Andy Taylor]

And there are no easy answers. But when you blindly blame one side and another a free pass, there are no answers ever...

No free pass. But one side clearly has the far greater responsibility.

The Indian Army has their brutalities. But they also have to hold together a massive country filled with different ethnic groups and under attack by extremists supported by their long time friends in Pakistan...

What it goes to show for me is that shit begets shit. I don't know what the different ethnic groups are up to but in my perspective it's fair to say that if the Hindus in India hadn't started out giving the Muslims shit, Pakistan need not have been created and so much could have been avoided. No thanks to the British for worsening things either since there were times in the past when the two religions got on much better under more enlightened leadership. The US isn't helping now and it's not their battle.

I've never claimed to be anything but normal and somewhat mainstream (although most political "tests" put me somewhere between Chomsky and Abbie Hoffman).And believing in unverifiable conspiracy speculation crap is just a crutch and is what ultimately leads to political self-emasculation. Most of it isn't supported by anything but speculations and bad science...

Not much of it has to do with science. It doesn't all hinge on 9/11 theories, this is much older than that. A lot of it is verifiable and despite the gaps makes sense, unlike the seemingly illogical wars that never end ... and if the 'conspiracies' are true are not meant to. It is no crutch for anything since it only makes one feel more scared and helpless. The crutch if anything is the media which pretends it isn't real and distorts truth and repeats it's propaganda.

I lost you there because you cannot find a single example of where a "liberal" president tried to democratize a nation. We've meddled, but rarely until recently has it been for anything other than self-interest...

The meddling and democratising are usually spun as being hand in hand. You may be right their has been no overt intervention, but the liberal base certainly has been screaming for it all along. And you do now have a president who probably hopes to spread democracy in one of those countries he's invading, don't you think?

But feel free to explain, for example, to me how the president of Iraq is our "favorite" when he regularly meets with the Iranian leadership...

What does that signify really? Just because he is next door to Iran and meets their president does not mean he can't be a puppet. I'm not up to date, but I do know that Chalabi certainly was. I also recall reading something about the 'free' elections that led to the present Iraqi govt. All I see is business as usual. Fool me a dozen times or so and I lose interest.

They are. I don't know what you are other than a knee jerker that seeks to pin the blame on America without thinking closely about what would have been the alternatives. America is far from perfect, but it has attempted at least a thin veneer of "enlightened self-interest" as opposed to say China's, or the former Soviet Union's, blatant self-interest...

The alternatives for whom? I can't say what for the US, although I don't see how not launching wars in the Middle East can diminish their importance. A major part of the goal here though unstated is to counter China and Russia. That's understandable but the wars on the weaker countries of the world isn't. I read Ron Paul's bio and it's truly inspiring, he would undoubtedly have scaled back all the fabricated wars and made a real example of his country to it's "enemies".

Um what? The Indian Army initially took the offensive in the last two conflicts...and Indian "bleeding heart liberals" imposed their version of "democracy" on Pakistan by helping to evict them from Bangladesh and "imposing" their values on them (according to your world view)...

Which ones? Kargil? All of these wars began with Pak incursions into Indian Kashmiri territory. Bangladesh... India was at war with Pakistan. Iraq/Afghanistan/Pak wasn't in one with the US.

Right! Just like we had to negotiate with Saddam's former minions. And not all Taliban were in agreement, nor was the Talubs and al Qaida one in the same...

Why not stop the bombings right now and just negotiate? Why not have done this at the start? And no I don't believe Obama would not have launched an invasion somewhere. The Pak bombings are as misguided and senseless as Clinton's bombing of a pharmaceutical factory.

You're still on the arse of the colonialists sphere...

The Brits are history. We owe them shit apart from their crippling the country for a couple of centuries.

But US pop-culture does lead inevitably to a consumerist system, for better or worse, and a wider cultural exchange and respect. Democracy wasn't invented by the United States, but it was modernized and refined. And many democracies are not based on the US model, such as in Europe. The population may not want a carbon copy US gov't, but they want a real democracy that is not just window dressing for the mullahs in control...

I don't know, China manages to do both. But ofcourse Iranians would want an alternative, the youth are modern.

[Nickdfresh]

No free pass. But one side clearly has the far greater responsibility.

Who gives a fuck? and what real meaning does this have on today's events other than acknowledging that the US has fucked up and nothing is framed in the "good vs. evil" terms deluded Neo Con's wish to see them in...

Also, this seems like complete enabling. The poor Iranians have excuses and a crutch of the Great Satan, so now they can kill their gays or arrest dissenters and torture them because they were abused by the US as children...

What fucking horseshit! They need to take responsibility for their actions too...

What it goes to show for me is that shit begets shit. I don't know what the different ethnic groups are up to but in my perspective it's fair to say that if the Hindus in India hadn't started out giving the Muslims shit, Pakistan need not have been created and so much could have been avoided. No thanks to the British for worsening things either since there were times in the past when the two religions got on much better under more enlightened leadership. The US isn't helping now and it's not their battle.

Right, well, one side seems a tad more prone to setting off bombs and randomly shooting innocent people...

Not much of it has to do with science.

Nor fact...

It doesn't all hinge on 9/11 theories, this is much older than that. A lot of it is verifiable and despite the gaps makes sense, unlike the seemingly illogical wars that never end ... and if the 'conspiracies' are true are not meant to. It is no crutch for anything since it only makes one feel more scared and helpless. The crutch if anything is the media which pretends it isn't real and distorts truth and repeats it's propaganda.

It's called human nature. And people in power are not omipotent and cannot "control" everything. When things happen to show this to be the case, like 9/11, then naturally they too become part of the "conspiracy" bullshit...

But it is mostly bullshit save for a few instances. But there is no "control." See "Chaos Theory" for further reading...

The meddling and democratising are usually spun as being hand in hand. You may be right their has been no overt intervention, but the liberal base certainly has been screaming for it all along. And you do now have a president who probably hopes to spread democracy in one of those countries he's invading, don't you think?

Which fucking "meddling?" Which country. You keep speaking in almost juvenile generalities devoid of any specific case references. Please provide a specific example, or STFU about it....

Because you're absolutely insane. The idea of whiny US liberals trying to spread our "democracy" around the world is seldom a complaint by anyone. The complaint about the US generally, is that they've supported dictator cunts around the world (like the Shah). They acted like Christ coming into the temple mount with the moralist propaganda...

What does that signify really? Just because he is next door to Iran and meets their president does not mean he can't be a puppet. I'm not up to date, but I do know that Chalabi certainly was. I also recall reading something about the 'free' elections that led to the present Iraqi govt. All I see is business as usual. Fool me a dozen times or so and I lose interest.

But he's clearly NOT a puppet. He pretty much does what the fuck he wants and is only responsive to US demands under heavy pressure. But anyone who pays attention and actually reads knows that the Iranians have far more influence with the Iraqi gov't than the US does...

Chalabi was voted out. And the only reason anyone could see him as a "puppet" is because he resisted Iranian encroachment (being a Sunni) and also the Baathist insurgents....

The alternatives for whom? I can't say what for the US, although I don't see how not launching wars in the Middle East can diminish their importance. A major part of the goal here though unstated is to counter China and Russia. That's understandable but the wars on the weaker countries of the world isn't. I read Ron Paul's bio and it's truly inspiring, he would undoubtedly have scaled back all the fabricated wars and made a real example of his country to it's "enemies".

The War had various aims. Russia is simply not seen as a long term threat anymore, something that annoys them to no end. China is perceived a long term threat, and a ruthless state whose dealings (with Genocidal assholes in the Sudan for instance) make the US look line shining white knights in comparison. Something that is not lost on even the most cynical Euro intellectual who may have severe distrust of the US, but rates China's ruthless, almost completely devoid of ideology, political system as far more dubious with a nasty blend of uber-capitalism and a one party fascist state...

Which ones? Kargil? All of these wars began with Pak incursions into Indian Kashmiri territory. Bangladesh... India was at war with Pakistan. Iraq/Afghanistan/Pak wasn't in one with the US.

India attacked in the 67' War and yes, Pakistan struck first in the 71' War. But the Indian Army was massing on the border and was going to attack sooner or later...

Why not stop the bombings right now and just negotiate? Why not have done this at the start?

While they still attack and implement Sharia law? Why would NATO stop bombing them? They would only see it as weakness...

Besides, the negotiations are not with the former Talub political establishment, but with individual, more moderate commanders and warlords...

There needs to be a stick with that carrot...

And no I don't believe Obama would not have launched an invasion somewhere.

Oh, okay. Well you ain't too bright then. Feel free to mention where Obama would have invaded...

The Pak bombings are as misguided and senseless as Clinton's bombing of a pharmaceutical factory.

No they are not! They've significantly weakened al Qaida's ability to maintain a structure and have eroded their best and brightest...

Plus killing their family members and confidants (many of the civilians you hear about getting killed are actually friends and family of al Qaida), while ruthless and cruel, is also a deterrent since they cannot simply keep their own families safe while plotting the murders of others...

Live by terrorist bombings, then die by terrorist bombings...

The Brits are history. We owe them shit apart from their crippling the country for a couple of centuries.

Right. But you still have co-opted a good deal of their culture, as have we. You have ties to them whether you like it or not...

I don't know, China manages to do both. But ofcourse Iranians would want an alternative, the youth are modern.

Actually, Chomsky's quote is most affect on China. They are the fascist dictatorship that is most effective. All the autocracy and state control of communism, and all the money and corruption-fun of capitalism. Still, there are some slow reforms and hope...

And maybe you're too young to remember, but it was the Chinese students that were quoting John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, right before their gov't ran them over with tanks in Tiananmen Square and massacred them...

[Andy Taylor]

Who gives a fuck? and what real meaning does this have on today's events other than acknowledging that the US has fucked up and nothing is framed in the "good vs. evil" terms deluded Neo Con's wish to see them in..

Also, this seems like complete enabling. The poor Iranians have excuses and a crutch of the Great Satan, so now they can kill their gays or arrest dissenters and torture them because they were abused by the US as children...

What fucking horseshit! They need to take responsibility for their actions too...

Interesting choice of words. So it's just a 'fuck up'. Who gives a fuck? Nice attitude given the wide scale of grief the US has spread worldwide. And you're comparing the killing of how many gays exactly with the genocides in various Middle Eastern, South American, fuck that close to the whole globe? For all your love of logic you sure manage to show little when it suits you.

Right, well, one side seems a tad more prone to setting off bombs and randomly shooting innocent people...

Not neccessarily so, even though I haven't counted atrocities on either side. It's just the international press doesn't really look into the atrocites commited by good guys which India currently are even though in the past no one gave a shit when bombs exploded through out the country ... or even when this happened in the UK from the IRA. This is propaganda.

Nor fact...



It's called human nature. And people in power are not omipotent and cannot "control" everything. When things happen to show this to be the case, like 9/11, then naturally they too become part of the "conspiracy" bullshit...

But it is mostly bullshit save for a few instances. But there is no "control." See "Chaos Theory" for further reading...

And I suppose Cheney and Rumsfeld display what you call human nature or Hitler for that matter. The false flag drills, the stand down orders for one of the planes, none of this is worth a thorough investigation? There's tons of facts which are unaccounted for and which you try to explain away by saying it's out of people's control.

Which fucking "meddling?" Which country. You keep speaking in almost juvenile generalities devoid of any specific case references. Please provide a specific example, or STFU about it....

Clinton attacked enough countries in his time, Serbia (many now say unneccessarily), Sudan, Iraq, enough to make him an asshole warmonger.

Because you're absolutely insane. The idea of whiny US liberals trying to spread our "democracy" around the world is seldom a complaint by anyone. The complaint about the US generally, is that they've supported dictator cunts around the world (like the Shah). They acted like Christ coming into the temple mount with the moralist propaganda...

The democracy the US spreads is always bound up with war, and that plenty of people do object to. Which US leader has so far shown an understanding of local public opinion and been able to transplant a new leadership without pissing them off? They come in with the arrogance of any past colonial mindset (or modern day lib) and think they can set it right.

But he's clearly NOT a puppet. He pretty much does what the fuck he wants and is only responsive to US demands under heavy pressure. But anyone who pays attention and actually reads knows that the Iranians have far more influence with the Iraqi gov't than the US does...

Chalabi was voted out. And the only reason anyone could see him as a "puppet" is because he resisted Iranian encroachment (being a Sunni) and also the Baathist insurgents....

Chalabi was so obviously a puppet and also a part of a corruption scandal. As for the other guy I'm going to look for material and I'll get back on it.

The War had various aims. Russia is simply not seen as a long term threat anymore, something that annoys them to no end. China is perceived a long term threat, and a ruthless state whose dealings (with Genocidal assholes in the Sudan for instance) make the US look line shining white knights in comparison. Something that is not lost on even the most cynical Euro intellectual who may have severe distrust of the US, but rates China's ruthless, almost completely devoid of ideology, political system as far more dubious with a nasty blend of uber-capitalism and a one party fascist state...

There's missiles right on Russia's border so I'm taking that idea with a pinch of salt.

India attacked in the 67' War and yes, Pakistan struck first in the 71' War. But the Indian Army was massing on the border and was going to attack sooner or later...

They were on the border with East Pakistan, and the two countries were already firing at each other. Bangladesh also wanted to be independent, suffered massacres at Pak hands and at the very least we're talking about former Indian territory right on our borders and people who share similar origins. We're also talking real war which is justified, not a media fantasy.

While they still attack and implement Sharia law? Why would NATO stop bombing them? They would only see it as weakness...

But bombing the country is not going to change anything. I forget where this was (here maybe) but a lot of Afghans would like an Iranian sharia model for their country. You can't just bomb a few Taliban into submission, it's probably much of the population, theirs is a whole different culture. Telling their women to take off the hijab is like me telling you to listen to an A-HA album.

Besides, the negotiations are not with the former Talub political establishment, but with individual, more moderate commanders and warlords...

There needs to be a stick with that carrot...

Good luck.

Oh, okay. Well you ain't too bright then. Feel free to mention where Obama would have invaded...

Oh forgive my ignorance (don't quote this on it's own, smartass) but perhaps Pakistan which he has bleated about since his campaign? He would be in Iran too right now if the plan wasn't mooted FOR HIM by the folks at the Bilderberg.

No they are not! They've significantly weakened al Qaida's ability to maintain a structure and have eroded their best and brightest...

As if there aren't enough disaffected people being radicalized by the latest round of bombings. Way to go in getting them on your side. Just send the boy who had his entire village knocked out a couple of flowers and pray that he doesn't find friends to give him a dirty bomb in ten years time.

many of the civilians you hear about getting killed are actually friends and family of al Qaida

Thanks for this steaming pile of Bush/Obama propaganda.

Right. But you still have co-opted a good deal of their culture, as have we. You have ties to them whether you like it or not...

The language and a little of the culture yes, but I don't really subscribe to any culture out there that I know of, although most cultures when broken down are just about the same values. But not enough for me to be thankful about anything.