President Obama's Nowruz message to Iranian people

[Nickdfresh]

[QUOTE=Andy Taylor;1336894]

Your meltdown began way before "mine."

"I know you are but what am I?" and repeat...


LOL

I know you have little other choice than to resort to obfuscation and outright bullshit but that's what I was talking about with regard to your official NATO versions of the war.

LMFAO!! So, Andrea cannot specifically answer any questions nor actual facts, so he uses pseudo-intellectual troll masking of "obfuscation." The problem is that I asked very specific questions and you are the one providing the "NATO version" shit which is actually "obfuscation."

You see, I've never used a "NATO" version of anything...

I've used a background of reading news reports and human rights organizations, you clueless fucktard...

I love it!

I see you don't learn about irony in India...

Only because it wasn't about the whole conflict. At some point you asked for an example and Serbia was it. Only when you failed to prove anything you said, did you mention the wider conflict.

Oh fucking God! Sophistry now? The last hurrah of the Google-douche...

(For Serbia you still don't want to admit that it wasn't the genocide it was said to be.)

What wasn't the "genocide it was said to be?" WTF are you talking about, Strawman?

If you are speaking of Kosovo, I clearly stated that the claims were "hyperbole."

But you're a jackoff that refuses to actually check facts nor grasp "nuance"...

Here's what I said, strawman:

I agree there was plenty of hyperbole and hysteria. But then, when we saw the Bosnian campaign as a nauseating exemplar of what Milosevic's regime was capable of, it is understandable....

But what cannot be disputed was that almost the entire country was emptied of Albanians at the point of a gun...and are the Kosovars all America shill propagandists?

In that case, alright, there was a background to it and yes, the Serbs were guilty.

I never said "the Serbs" as a people were guilty. I said Milosevic and implied that his crony paramilitary militia terrorist thugs like Ratko Mladic, murdered Bosnian civilians.

I could be wrong, but I do not think I used the term "genocide" since ethnic cleansing in not quite genocide and is sort of genocides prick little brother...

I never argued that it was genocide, dummy...

Try again...

If we're talking about the killings then, yes it was wrong.

What a wonderful moral compass you have!

But you're still looking at it in isolation. Yes, how did it start? It started with US meddling and destabilization of Yugoslavia. Which was the general point that started off this whole discussion.

An specific example of which would be? You keep saying "meddling" and "destabilization." Can you cite specific examples? If it was "the whole point" (that you attempted to make) then please bring make specific statements regarding how the US ever gave much of a fuck about the former Yugoslavia enough to bother to want to "destabilize" it and what they would have gained from war torn Balkans...

You're just a sock-puppet regurgitating the rantings of clones you found on Google with no original thought nor analysis...

You don't see the irony in your post.

Neither could you...

That's exactly how you're painting Milosevic when he wasn't the evil mass murderer he was made out to be, not in the Serbian conflict (that's what we were focussed on particularly before the tangents). And you're framing this whole issue around Serbia's alleged responsibility when clearly the west plotted to destabilise the region. You glossed over all that as if it's one "conspiracy." Just facts you don't like...

How did the West "clearly plotted" to "destabilize" the region...

This is fucking hysterical!! Nice troll, fuckwit. But isn't the point of trolling to be clever and not shown to be a moron?

If he wasn't an "evil mass-murder," then why was he tried as a war criminal by the prosecutor you cited as the one that "exposed" NATO "War Crimes" despite no evidence she ever made such a statement?

And I'm not saying Milosevic could not have been guilty, but there are enough people questioning the charges brought against him. He is still the lesser of two evils compared to the west. It's not an excuse, it's just that you stand by the greater evil.

If the West is so fucking evil, then why live here. Why don't you go back to Bombay?

Just like you rave on about Milosevic like a morally bankrupt jerk when Kosovo's crimes were greater.

Calling the Kosovo Humanitarians to Account - by John Pilger

LOL So, John Pilger uses human rights groups accounts when it suits his end, but then denounces them when they don't?

He's ceases to be a journalist then, he's a commentator and op-ed writer and "documentation" -like Micheal Moore- nothing more...

Going in circles again. Basically your strategy is to get the last word in. Does this come from watching your liberal heroes or your "college education"?

Then why do you keep responding? What's a "liberal hero?" How would you even know who my heroes were? I don't spout off on the web about the "genius" of a hack-journalist and mental case American lawyer that many think are just a knee-jerk leftists asshole denouncing one perceived evil so he can enable anther evil...

BTW, by defending a right wing fascist like Milosevic, one is no longer "leftist" in my view any more than David Irving is...

My "agenda" is to expose you as a clueless dickhead. But you really didn't need my help though.

You are an ignoranamus that deals in stereotypes. It is a class based society still, however, wealth and caste don't go hand in hand. There are many rich "lower caste" people just as there are many poor "upper caste". It also created provisions for the disadvantaged classes before the US got rid of segregation and had a "lower class" president before the US elected a minority pres. It doesn't say much but it accounts for something.

Oreally. Do tell. "Many" you say?

The funny thing is that those provisions are profoundly less effective than the US effort at desegregation...

But in any case, we're calling into question you're self-deluded credibility on anything...

You've fled your "colonial space" for the "evil" West that you denounce. But yet you defend the practices that make much of your country an impoverished hell hole...

And you're an arrogant cultural snob,

Um, pot-tea kettle are black...

...to you India is clearly such a third world shithole and I should be thankful that I can access the web.

Those are your words, not mine. But actually another one of my points goes over your head. I never said you should be "thankful." I implied that you are a whiny fucking hypocrite that is self-deluded and incapable of effective societal commentary...

Because all you know is the documentaries you watch there's no point in my telling you that in some respects I can have a better standard of living in India than in Scotland.

Sure you can, because in India your family can exploit the impoverished for cheaper goods and services...

Your beloved media makes a point of showing only the slums (why not a documentary focussed on trailer parks and ghettos?) when they only occupy a part of the big cities and India's a huge country. Yes, the roads are bad and a sewage system is virtually non-existant, but in contrast, houses are generally bigger, most of them have car porches (a rarity in Scotland apparently) and balconies (virtually non-existant here). There's those clunky cars that you associate with India - they started to disppear almost overnight in the late 90s and they generally have better taste and money to buy better cars than the Peugeots and Vauxhalls people buy here. I've seen many brand new sports cars on the road. They're not "pampered beneficiaries", people do manage to make money despite your assumptions. You buy into the "a dollar a day" garbage when even those people clearly have more purchasing people than their US counterparts.

The US media do not just show the slums of India.

Whether they're employed or not the average Indian makes it through college and some parts of the country have a high rate of literacy. I know you've got more stereotypes of water and disease which thankfully I, my relatives and friends, people I have ever known have mysteriously remained free from thus far. "High caste!" Ignorant schmuck.

I don't recall ever making any "stereotypes" specifically mentioning "water and disease. I mention that there is significant poverty and a class system that insures a small percentage receive a high percentage of educational funding that is disproportionate and unfair on many levels...

But it is funny how I know more of India than you do of the "West" or your ignorant, apologist opines on a mass-murder who gave orders that resulted in the deaths, rapes, theft from, and displacement of tens of thousands from Croatia to Kososvo...

I'm not implying that many Croats, KLA members, etc are innocent, nor did I say I agree with much of the NATO bombing policy...

But if you had your head out of your ass and were actually watching balanced coverage during that period, you'd know that NATO troops were initially deployed as very passive "peacekeepers" and the initial NATO attacks were conducted after a long period of hostility culminating in the use of NATO peacekeepers as "human shields." That is, when Serb snipers weren't busy picking off civilians in Sarajevo...

This is where you're guilty time and again of unadulterated bullshit - comparing the 71 war to Serbia (great context). If I'm irrational, then you are too, many times fold.

Actually, dummy, I was comparing the Indian 67' and 71' Wars to US and NATO actions, not Serbia's...

Why don't you prove there were, when even the tribunal disagreed, "genius"!

Why don't you Google a couple of fucking links from human rights groups about the "fake graves"...

If you were smart enough you would get your money back. Because your "college learning" went out the other ear or through your vacant skull and you have nothing to back up your assertions than in your mind. My sources, John Pilger in particular have FAR more credibility than anything you've brought up. What you think is credible doesn't matter here.

LMFAO!!!

What "sources" did you actually post? You posted nothing but general links and supported nothing of what you said...

I don't think you even knew who Pilger was until you fucking Googled it, ass-gargler...

You have yet to provide one single focused piece of evidence to answer a question other than posturing, name-dropping, sophistry, and you have no fucking clue...

[Nickdfresh]

An interesting criticism of John Pilger from a socialist website...

Does John Pilger back Iran?
Submitted on 27 May, 2007 - 23:14

War and Terror

By Mark Osborn

John Pilger warns British citizens not to sit by while the government leads us all towards a crisis over Iran (Guardian 13 February also “Iran: a war is coming”, in New Statesman 1 February). In the process he gives us a good example of how the degenerate left gets it all so badly wrong.

His material on Iran has these features:

• The real enemy is the US: “The one piece of ‘solid evidence’ is the threat posed by the United States” with its “facile concerns for democracy.” “Iran possesses not a single nuclear weapon nor has it ever threatened to build one”. Apparently: “In announcing what he called a “surge” of American troops in Iraq, George W Bush identified Iran as his real target.”

• He prettifies and excuses the Iranian regime: “[Iran] has been implacably opposed to al-Qaida, condemning the 9/11 attacks and supporting the United States in Afghanistan.”

• Iran is peaceful: “Unlike its two nemeses, the US and Israel, Iran has attacked no other countries… Iran has a history of obeying international law. The ‘threat’ from Iran is entirely manufactured… Ahmadinejad did not call for Israel to be ‘wiped off the map’. He said, ‘The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time’.” So that’s OK then.

• In the final analysis, it is all the west’s fault: “The fuse of the bombs that killed 52 Londoners was lit by ‘us’,” Why? Because “British intelligence set out to destroy secular Arab nationalism,” and helped the mujadeheen in Afghanistan.

There are other secondary features to Pilger’s writing: the focus on details of weapons systems and sales; conspiracy theories... Then there is the pathological hatred of the western powers which leads to the repeated and idiotic allusion that the US/UK leaders bear a similarity to Nazis: “What are we waiting for?... the declaration of another thousand year Reich?”; or referring to Blair’s “Goebbels-like” accusation that “elements of the Iranian regime” are responsible for aiding attacks in Iraq. (How Blair manages to be Goebbels-like while saying something that is perfectly reasonable and plausible is beyond me).

But more than anything the problem with Pilger’s work is what he chooses not to say. There is no, or almost no, criticism of the Iranian regime or description of its crimes here. No balance whatsoever is offered.

So what is a proper picture of Iran and the Iranian regime, what needs to be said in order to give a proper framework to the unfolding events?

The issue is not just that Iran has a thoroughly reactionary clerical dictatorship that ensures the repression of workers, women and LGBT people inside Iran. That’s true (and almost every issue of Solidarity documents this repression and urges British labour movement solidarity with the oppressed.)

But more than that, Iran is a developed capitalist state, and an imperialist competitor to the US in the region.

True, Iran’s economy is unevenly developed, with backwardness alongside modern industrial production. True, also, that the US is a bigger power. But Iran is a country of 70 million people with GDP per capita at $8,400. Despite sanctions, the economy has been growing at 6-7% per year.

It holds 10% of the world’s proven oil reserves and has the world’s second largest reserves of natural gas, which gives it sizeable revenues and real power.

It has its own multinationals. For example, Iranian car production has passed the one million vehicle per year mark; Iran Khodro is the largest car manufacturer in the Middle-East, employing 37,000 workers, and has joint ventures with foreign partners on four continents.

Iran also has a big defence industry. Iran’s 2005 defence budget was estimated to be $6.3 billion. As of 2006, Iran had exported weapons to 57 countries.

Iran’s standing in the Islamic world is high, especially after the perceived success of its client-ally Hezbollah in 2006, in Lebanon, in the fight with the Israeli military.

Hezbollah was founded in 1982 with Iranian help. It was inspired by the success of the Iranian revolution and has been funded and trained by Iran.

Iran has also been the main beneficiary following the US-led war on Iraq.

Iran has strong links with Iraq’s governing Shi’ite bloc, including its two major parties - the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) and the Dawa Party. SCIRI, Iraq’s largest political party, was formed by Iraqi exiles in Iran in 1982.

SCIRI’s military wing, the Badr Brigades, has received financial and training support from Iran’s Revolutionary Guard. Iran also supports Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.

Tehran also has a commercial stake in Iraq’s future. In addition to building a $25 million airport in Basra, Iranian businessmen are buying up property in southern Iraq. The Iranian ambassador in Baghdad claims that Tehran plans to build three hospitals and set up a $1 billion loan fund for Iraqi businesses.

Beyond Iraq, and according to a report in the Herald Tribune, “When the Taliban were removed in 2001, Iran promised to help stabilise Afghanistan. It was Iranian diplomats who stepped in to save foundering talks to form a new Afghan government, persuading the Northern Alliance to accept the agreement. Soon after, Iran pledged $560 million in aid and loans to Afghanistan over five years, a ‘startling’ amount for a non-industrialised country, according to James Dobbins, the senior American envoy to Afghanistan at the time.

“Iranian officials said they focused on roads and power as a quick way to strengthen Afghanistan’s economy. A major project has involved upgrading roads linking Afghanistan with the Iranian port of Chabahar, on the Gulf of Oman.

“Afghanistan’s economic reliance on Iran has increased as Taliban attacks have slowed the economy…

“Iran has distributed more than $200 million, mostly [in Western Afghanistan] but also in the capital, Kabul…

“The Iranian ambassador, Muhammad Reza Bahrami, portrayed his government’s activities as neighbourly good works…

“Still, there are indications of other motives. Iranian radio stations are broadcasting anti-American propaganda into Afghanistan. Moderate Shiite leaders in Afghanistan say Tehran is funnelling money to conservative Shiite religious schools and former warlords with longstanding ties to Iranian intelligence agencies.

“And as the dispute over Iran’s nuclear program has escalated Iranian intelligence activity has increased across Afghanistan, American and Afghan officials say. This has included not just surveillance and information collection but the recruitment of a network of pro-Iranian operatives who could attack American targets in Afghanistan.

“Western diplomats say that, at the very least, Iran’s goals in Afghanistan are to hasten the withdrawal of American troops, prevent the Taliban from regaining power and keep the Afghan west firmly under Tehran’s sway.”

When not kidnapping British sailors, the Iranian navy is conducting its own war games and is reportedly using “rocket-launching ships, heavy warships, and logistic ships, as well as surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles” along with electronic warfare and simulations of in the northern and middle Gulf. A few weeks ago the Saudis discovered an Iranian submarine near Jubail.

The Iranians also have influence among the Shi’ite minority in Saudi, in the Gulf States and among the Palestinians.

Given this picture, why should we accept Pilger’s assurance that “the ‘threat’ from Iran is entirely manufactured”? Why would we wish to give the Iranian leadership the benefit of the doubt, for example, on the development of nuclear weapons?

The current picture about Iran here is one of a powerful regional imperialist power actively extending its influence. And so the US-Iran conflict is a contest between contending imperialisms (different degrees of power, true, but both Iran and the US are expansionist and aggressive).

Pilger writes, that the “Bush-Cheney-Blair ‘long war’ edges closer to Iran for no reason other than that nation’s independence from rapacious America.” Indeed Iran does have full independence from the US, but it also has a drive to expand the influence and power abroad of the reactionary regime inside Iran. That’s the reason for the Iran-US stand-off: the two powers’ interests conflict. And while we oppose the US, we oppose Iran’s aims too.

Pilger doesn’t use the words, “in the conflict with the US I back Iran.” But what he writes — and what he chooses to omit — means he means just that.

In contrast, third camp Marxism will not side with Iran in its current conflict with the US — either explicitly, or backhandedly with Pilger.

From The WorkersLiberty.com

[hideyoursheep]

Try to audition for a role in a Bollywood movie lately Hindi Taylor?

Didn't think so, because you have to be born or marry into it!

Fuckin' hillbillies...

[Andy Taylor]

LMFAO!! So, Andrea cannot specifically answer any questions nor actual facts, so he uses pseudo-intellectual troll masking of "obfuscation." The problem is that I asked very specific questions and you are the one providing the "NATO version" shit which is actually "obfuscation."

You see, I've never used a "NATO" version of anything...

I've used a background of reading news reports and human rights organizations, you clueless fucktard...

I answered every one of your points, dipshit, then you ask again me to repeat them again and each time I do you say it's not credible or it's out of "context." Including the one later in this thread I've given you three sources for the same thing, only this one addresses the Milosevic part. Oh you've asked specific questions, you don't have specific answers yourself.

You have a background of reading propagandistic sources used by NATO to launch an invasion. Who do you think this tribunal created by the US answers to? Let's ask Russian sources for their take on Chechneya or Afghanistan. You are such a mindless orangutan.

Oh fucking God! Sophistry now? The last hurrah of the Google-douche...

No, I was outing you on your silly diversions. You flit from point to point because you're confused and don't know what your point is half the time. This late in the thread you began trying to bring up the holocaust as if you hadn't gone on enough tangents.

And you just can never admit you're wrong. Talk about self-delusion. You're a sad case that clearly implies one thing then when you're called out on it, you use the defense of "I never said that!!" Why not send in your cv to Fox or for Whitehouse spokesman? Your debating skills are piss-poor and you have to resort to bullshitting your way through.

What wasn't the "genocide it was said to be?" WTF are you talking about, Strawman?

If you are speaking of Kosovo, I clearly stated that the claims were "hyperbole."

Yes, it was. And therefore not good enough to use as a pretext for war, assclown. That is the point there. You don't score any points for "nuance" no matter how much you twist and turn around it like a politician.

I could be wrong, but I do not think I used the term "genocide" since ethnic cleansing in not quite genocide

and is sort of genocides prick little brother...

I never argued that it was genocide, dummy...

Try again...

Major point there!! Why not expand it to another para so you can gloat over that "victory" some more.

What a wonderful moral compass you have!

Shaddap, ape.

An specific example of which would be? You keep saying "meddling" and "destabilization." Can you cite specific examples? If it was "the whole point" (that you attempted to make) then please bring make specific statements regarding how the US ever gave much of a fuck about the former Yugoslavia enough to bother to want to "destabilize" it and what they would have gained from war torn Balkans...

You're just a sock-puppet regurgitating the rantings of clones you found on Google with no original thought nor analysis...

Lmao! I'm more rational than you could be, you're the zombie that takes in what he sees on tv without hardly questioning it. Analyzing, sure. Analyzing your asshole with your head.

You ask me why the US gives a fuck. That's always hard to understand, perhaps the only people that truly know that are the people behind it and it wouldn't make sense to any normal people. In the case of Iraq, there's oil/regional dominance/Halliburton/PNAC but most people still cannot really explain the exact reason. From Richard Perle's rants I genuinely doubt he knows either. He and Cheney believe in power for it's own sake.

The Balkans: It seems to have been done mainly at the behest of Germany who wanted to assert itself in the region and open up new markets in Slovenia and Croatia. And I doubt you haven't heard this but the west also wanted to prop up NATO in carving out a new role for it. It's true that Slovenia and others voted for independence, but this was still an internal matter, not one for Euro govts to "grant" independence. And there were Serb minorities in Croatia. At the same time, the US armed the various provinces and sent Serbia the message that they couldn't retaliate in what would have been a civil war. As always internal strife does exist but the US and some European countries deliberately inflamed the situation and bears responsibility for the war that followed. You mentioned Albanians leaving, yes... because of the NATO bombs. And it could be NATO's attacks that killed them just as easily as Serbia's.

If he wasn't an "evil mass-murder," then why was he tried as a war criminal by the prosecutor you cited as the one that "exposed" NATO "War Crimes" despite no evidence she ever made such a statement?

Don't twist things, I said according to Del Ponte that the mass graves weren't there. Not evidence of NATO's crimes, even though this does prove the official versions a lie. I haven't read any more of Del Ponte. Btw, Ponte has been asked not to promote her book by her own govt. That explains why I couldn't find it on either Amazon.com or amazon.uk. Just a little aside, don't get all worked up. No matter what she thinks she still works for a tribunal created by the US. Here's a link to how Milosevic has been misrepresented. You are free to "believe" Milosevic is a war criminal but here there's a lot of evidence that it was a frame up.

The Dismantling of Yugoslavia Part 1 - Monthly Review

If the West is so fucking evil, then why live here. Why don't you go back to Bombay?

Not all the west, remember I mentioned Canada? I'll add Scotland, and Ireland to that too. India's on my list too don't worry.

LOL So, John Pilger uses human rights groups accounts when it suits his end, but then denounces them when they don't?

He's ceases to be a journalist then, he's a commentator and op-ed writer and "documentation" -like Micheal Moore-

nothing more...

Not when it suits him - not every rights group and every person in it is correct all the time. He is definitely a commentator on things he has directly experienced and has first hand sources for. He states that quite clearly, nothing wrong there.

What's a "liberal hero?" How would you even know who my heroes were? I don't spout off on the web about the "genius" of a hack-journalist and mental case American lawyer that many think are just a knee-jerk leftists asshole denouncing one perceived evil so he can enable anther evil...

I'd say your heroes are Clinton ... and Ari Fleischer.

No, you just bring up pointless wiki sources.

My "agenda" is to expose you as a clueless dickhead.

No your agenda is to look less of a fool in your own little pond which explains why you consistently scream insults to silence your opposition. All your posts comes off as self-indulgent rants, you're a monkey that hops up and down screeching as you throw poop all around you.

Oreally. Do tell. "Many" you say?

The funny thing is that those provisions are profoundly less effective than the US effort at desegregation...

You've fled your "colonial space" for the "evil" West that you denounce. But yet you defend the practices that make much of your country an impoverished hell hole...

Many say I. And maybe the day blacks aren't disenfranchised in the US maybe you can come back to this point.

This is where you go on repeating something ad-nauseam till you hope it sticks, but I can live comfortably back in the home I've "fled." And I don't defend anything, I defended myself against your baseless ignorant assumptions. Why do I have to defend the inhumane practises in India to someone who's country was built on slavery and massacres.

I will also say that your problem isn't with caste. You probably pretend to care so much for those in slums but when those people make it out of slums it offends you that they don't "deserve" what they're "given". You have the Euro colonial mentality that believes "third worlders" are incapable. I've come across this enough times for anyone to tell me otherwise. I'm not implying racism, but West Euro snobs and Americans are especially guilty of this attitude towards most of the world.

You also have a socialist mentality of wanting to pull everyone down to your level as I've seen you and most liberals rave about "rich people." Your problem there is jealousy... you possess little of the ideals that made the US unique. You're better off moving to Europe.

Um, pot-tea kettle are black...

You're talking shit again.

Those are your words, not mine. But actually another one of my points goes over your head. I never said you should be "thankful." I implied that you are a whiny fucking hypocrite that is self-deluded and incapable of effective societal commentary...

You used the word shithole. Yes, you never used the "word" thankful.

Sure you can, because in India your family can exploit the impoverished for cheaper goods and services...

Your whole way of life is sustained by the empire you call home which exploits the third world and wages perpetual war on them. So fuck right off, you parasiteon the face of the globe. You're the last people to be speaking of exploitation.

The US media do not just show the slums of India.

So your excuse for being a moron is what? Your college education?

I don't recall ever making any "stereotypes" specifically mentioning "water and disease. I mention that there is significant poverty and a class system that insures a small percentage receive a high percentage of educational funding that is disproportionate and unfair on many levels...

I know you didn't specifically say that.

that benefits pretty much only the top 1% at the top of the caste.

Which is not the same thing as "significant poverty".

But it is funny how I know more of India than you do of the "West" or your ignorant, apologist opines on a mass-murder who gave orders that resulted in the deaths, rapes, theft from, and displacement of tens of thousands from Croatia to Kososvo...

You know fuck all about the place. You're more suited to tuning into CNN so you can regurgitate it here.

I'm not implying that many Croats, KLA members, etc are innocent, nor did I say I agree with much of the NATO bombing policy...

"much of". You're a confused, confused person.

But if you had your head out of your ass and were actually watching balanced coverage during that period, you'd know that NATO troops were initially deployed as very passive "peacekeepers" and the initial NATO attacks
were conducted after a long period of hostility culminating in the use of NATO peacekeepers as "human shields." That is, when Serb snipers weren't busy picking off civilians in Sarajevo...

I was in my mid-teens so I might have skipped it. And I'm sure you're covering all sides of the issue "as usual".

Actually, dummy, I was comparing the Indian 67' and 71' Wars to US and NATO actions, not Serbia's...

The Serbian war is what I meant, you suck at comprehension precisely because you're more concerned with semantics.

Why don't you Google a couple of fucking links from human rights groups about the "fake graves"...LMFAO!!!



What "sources" did you actually post? You posted nothing but general links and supported nothing of what you

said...

I don't think you even knew who Pilger was until you fucking Googled it, ass-gargler...

That's exactly what I did wankstain, go back there and read what both the FBI and a forensics team looked for but didn't find: mass graves. You can't even be bothered to read and then you whine "you have no sources!!!" Nincompoop.

You have yet to provide one single focused piece of evidence to answer a question other than posturing, name-

dropping, sophistry, and you have no fucking clue...

Posturing, you've said it exactly. Describes your own posts here. You're an intellectual lightweight that simply sits there and deflects every argument thrown at him without any real counter argument and you so desperately try and project that onto me. You're a fail.


I've been a proud unamerican Pilger-ite since 9/11. He attacks people on the left too and I've seen these propaganda pieces before.

[Nickdfresh]

I answered every one of your points, dipshit, then you ask again me to repeat them again and each time I do you say it's not credible or it's out of "context."

Fuckwit, you haven't answered ONE fucking point! You make silly fucking schoolboy fucktarded simpleton statements, then avoid any specific facts to back your argument because you have none...

Including the one later in this thread I've given you three sources for the same thing, only this one addresses the Milosevic part. Oh you've asked specific questions, you don't have specific answers yourself.

What "sources?" The OPINION PIECE of a deluded, by all accounts lunatic Australian documentarian pretending to be a journalist while avoiding any pretense of journalism?

You have a background of reading propagandistic sources used by NATO to launch an invasion. Who do you think this tribunal created by the US answers to? Let's ask Russian sources for their take on Chechneya or Afghanistan. You are such a mindless orangutan.

No, I was outing you on your silly diversions. You flit from point to point because you're confused and don't know what your point is half the time. This late in the thread you began trying to bring up the holocaust as if you hadn't gone on enough tangents.

Um, why the italics for "you?" Is that supposed to give wieght to your bullshit, strawman assertions?

Which "propagandistic sources" have I read, jackoff? You're the one that enjoys the rantings of haters, not me...

I "tribunal" answers the the UNITED NATIONS, dummy. Just because someone makes an assertion with absolutely no evidence doesn't make it true. Now you can go back to reinserting your head into your ass...

And the only thing you "outed" was your dependence on Google and questionable, unbalanced sources, and that you have no fucking idea what you are talking about and are way out of your depth...

And you just can never admit you're wrong.

Why would I lie?

Talk about self-delusion. You're a sad case that clearly implies one thing then when you're called out on it, you use the defense of "I never said that!!" Why not send in your cv to Fox or for Whitehouse spokesman? Your debating skills are piss-poor and you have to resort to bullshitting your way through.

But I did never say it, strawman. The only "self-delusion" is your skillless rewrite of what you think I was saying without any ability to quote it whatsoever...

LOL What's funny here is that your now reduced to writing long winded, redundant horseshits of opinions regarding my "debating skills." Well Nancy, if they're so bad, then why come back to this thread days later?

Yes, it was. And therefore not good enough to use as a pretext for war, assclown. That is the point there. You don't score any points for "nuance" no matter how much you twist and turn around it like a politician.

Right dummy. Which is why I agreed and said that the pseudo-genocide taking place in Kosovo was NEVER the real "justification" of the War. The justification was the butchery that Milosevic was primarily responsible for since he unleashed his Army and militias on Croatia in 1990!

He was a time tested despot directly and indirectly responsible for 90% of the War Crimes committed in Bosnia and Croatia...

How's that? Did I spell it out for you well enough to understand, retard?

Major point there!! Why not expand it to another para so you can gloat over that "victory" some more.

What is that? That you, like Ramsey Clark and Pilger, support rapists, thieves, ethnic cleansers, and murderers?

Is that really it now, "semantics?" Well, our victory is your loss, loser...

Shaddap, ape.

Are you fucking three, now?

Lmao! I'm more rational than you could be, you're the zombie that takes in what he sees on tv without hardly questioning it. Analyzing, sure. Analyzing your asshole with your head.

I don't watch much TV and read most of my news....

I don't "question it?" Um asshole, I've based my arguments on facts while you've based yours on generalizations, half-truths, conspiracy theories, and opinion masked as facts...

You sophist, puerile douche...

You ask me why the US gives a fuck. That's always hard to understand, perhaps the only people that truly know that are the people behind it and it wouldn't make sense to any normal people. In the case of Iraq, there's oil/regional dominance/Halliburton/PNAC but most people still cannot really explain the exact reason. From Richard Perle's rants I genuinely doubt he knows either. He and Cheney believe in power for it's own sake.

The exact reason is what you've stated along with a genuine, but asinine, belief that a democracy could be carved into the Middle East by essentially ignorant, intellectually lazy men that became befuddled with the savagery of their own military, mercenaries and of the Iraqi civil war combatants...

But yes, it was about oil. And yes, they were warned that the disaster was inevitable with too few troops...

The Balkans: It seems to have been done mainly at the behest of Germany who wanted to assert itself in the region and open up new markets in Slovenia and Croatia.

Um, those markets are fucking tiny, and a blip...

And "what was done?" Supporting them as they asserted their sovereignty and national identity?

Actually, you're just parroting Serb conspiratorial (and ironic) propaganda appealing to their anti-German nationalism. But of course they were ignoring that they were now playing the part of the fascist murders that the Germans and Ustashi had previously...

And I doubt you haven't heard this but the west also wanted to prop up NATO in carving out a new role for it. It's true that Slovenia and others voted for independence, but this was still an internal matter,

It was an "internal matter" that the Serbs tried to externally quash with their tanks! And the West really didn't need to "prop up" NATO in 1990...the Berlin Wall was barely down and there was a lot of instability in the East...

...not one for Euro govts to "grant" independence. And there were Serb minorities in Croatia. At the same time, the US armed the various provinces and sent Serbia the message that they couldn't retaliate in what would have been a civil war. As always internal strife does exist but the US and some European countries deliberately inflamed the situation and bears responsibility for the war that followed. You mentioned Albanians leaving, yes... because of the NATO bombs. And it could be NATO's attacks that killed them just as easily as Serbia's.

The Serb Minorities in Croatia staged an uprising and ethnically cleansed Croats from their own countryside...

There were also Croats in Serbia as indeed Marshal Tito had been one. Did that give the Croats right to carve out pockets of little Croatias in Serbia then?

BTW, you conveniently failed to mention the Serb rape of Bosnia, both literal and symbolically. NATO and Germany did nothing over Croatia and even maintained an Arms Embargo that severally hurt the Croats and Bosnians until the very end of the War...

It was the successful Croatian offensive of 1995 that was in many ways Milosevic's downfall...It was the main reason he needed a harsh, military crackdown in Kosovo...

Don't twist things, I said according to Del Ponte that the mass graves weren't there.

There were some mass graves, just not nearly the numbers thought. And I'd like to see her exact quote on this...

Not evidence of NATO's crimes, even though this does prove the official versions a lie.

Which begs the questions: What is the "official version?" Media accounts or the account on a NATO web page? What is your "definition?"

And - If the "official versions" are a "lie," then why didn't they just say that over 100,000 Kosovars were murdered in order to better justify their bombing campaign...Why didn't NATO just create fake mass graves?

I haven't read any more of Del Ponte. Btw, Ponte has been asked not to promote her book by her own govt. That explains why I couldn't find it on either Amazon.com or amazon.uk. Just a little aside, don't get all worked up. No matter what she thinks she still works for a tribunal created by the US. Here's a link to how Milosevic has been misrepresented. You are free to "believe" Milosevic is a war criminal but here there's a lot of evidence that it was a frame up.

The Dismantling of Yugoslavia Part 1 - Monthly Review

Which "evidence?" The revisionist shit that originates with those of Serbian decent on the internet?

http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Herman.htm

You could just as easily paint a nicer, kinder and gentler portrait of Hitler, as David Irving attempted to do. It just takes a little lying, nihilism, bias, and complete decontextualization and changing of the facts...

Not all the west, remember I mentioned Canada? I'll add Scotland, and Ireland to that too. India's on my list too don't worry.

Two NATO nations fighting in Afghanistan? Interesting choice...

I couldn't give fuckall where you live actually. But it does completely eviscerate any credibility...

Not when it suits him - not every rights group and every person in it is correct all the time. He is definitely a commentator on things he has directly experienced and has first hand sources for. He states that quite clearly, nothing wrong there.

And he's a "journalist" that specializes in a binary-opposition in his hatred of the West that he has no problem living in also, and making a nice living at his cottage industry...

But he's "losing-it" and his "facts" and statements are increasingly making him look delusionally biased and anything BUT an "investigative reporter."

I'd say your heroes are Clinton ... and Ari Fleischer.

No, you just bring up pointless wiki sources.

I like Clinton. Rags to Rhodes Scholar. Demonized by both the right and extreme left (that is so left it is actually right wing). He must have done something right. But he's not a "hero" as I generally don't believe in the term or ideal...

And who fucking cares about Fleischer? He's a half-assed 'reporter' for NPR that sucks and makes me cringe when he's on...

No your agenda is to look less of a fool in your own little pond which explains why you consistently scream insults to silence your opposition. All your posts comes off as self-indulgent rants, you're a monkey that hops up and down screeching as you throw poop all around you.

My agenda is the truth...

LMFAO!! You've just described your entire masturbatory posting in this thread, and your penile "I'm a rebel and your not" sophistry...

Many say I. And maybe the day blacks aren't disenfranchised in the US maybe you can come back to this point.

Many are and some aren't...

And I can make any fucking point I want, just like you can live in the countries you hate and denounce on the internet out of some personal, masturbatory vanity...

This is where you go on repeating something ad-nauseam till you hope it sticks, but I can live comfortably back in the home I've "fled." And I don't defend anything, I defended myself against your baseless ignorant assumptions. Why do I have to defend the inhumane practises in India to someone who's country was built on slavery and massacres.

Because you're defending mass murdering war criminals in some insane bullshit that they've "stood up to the United States" --and you are a mindless, droning hypocrite and bore...

And it pisses you off to no end.

The truth is that you are shallow, and completely ignorant and can't even really attack the US all that well, and make yourself look like a fascist-sympathizing deluded moron that is much worse than what he pretends to hate...

I will also say that your problem isn't with caste. You probably pretend to care so much for those in slums but when those people make it out of slums it offends you that they don't "deserve" what they're "given". You have the Euro colonial mentality that believes "third worlders" are incapable. I've come across this enough times for anyone to tell me otherwise. I'm not implying racism, but West Euro snobs and Americans are especially guilty of this attitude towards most of the world.

I don't spend a lot of time thinking of the "people in the slums," though I wish them the best...

And part of "post-colonial theory" is that neo-colonialists are the first ones to bring up the miseries of colonialism (i.e. Mugabe) to justify their own infliction of current misery, corruption, or power so they can essentially replace the colonialist...

In short, take responsibility for your own current problems now regardless of what has happened...

You also have a socialist mentality of wanting to pull everyone down to your level as I've seen you and most liberals rave about "rich people." Your problem there is jealousy... you possess little of the ideals that made the US unique. You're better off moving to Europe.

LMFAO!! So, the reason why much of India is a shithole is because the US is better than you? And you deserve to be poor?

Nice one, fuckwit troll dummy...

BTW, I have not now, nor have I ever, advocated socialism, Eugene...

But perhaps you should thank the British for lifting you up, oh 'White Man's Burden?'

You're talking shit again.

Can't answer, huh?

You used the word shithole. Yes, you never used the "word" thankful.

And you used the words "genocide" and "evil."

Your whole way of life is sustained by the empire you call home which exploits the third world and wages perpetual war on them. So fuck right off, you parasiteon the face of the globe. You're the last people to be speaking of exploitation.

You socialist fag!

You just want to bring us down to your level!

So your excuse for being a moron is what? Your college education?

Yup, that's me. Running circles around you in this (master)debate.

I know you didn't specifically say that.

Which is not the same thing as "significant poverty".

You know fuck all about the place. You're more suited to tuning into CNN so you can regurgitate it here.

Have fun looking to the last time I cited CNN for anything...

They have some good people, and some talking-head idiots. But they do at least have the pretense of "balance."

"much of". You're a confused, confused person.

The only natural reaction to an insane world is insanity...

I was in my mid-teens so I might have skipped it. And I'm sure you're covering all sides of the issue "as usual".

What a bore you are. Is that your excuse? "I was just a teenager exploring my balls for the first time to the sounds of 'The Reflex,'" so you didn't bother to read anything?

Sad. No wonder why there are so many suckers taken in by internet bullshit artists and scammers...

The Serbian war is what I meant, you suck at comprehension precisely because you're more concerned with semantics.

No. I can't can't comprehend your scatterbrained, ADATS-like listing of every perceived US injustice with no definitions or clarifications and regardless of context...

That's exactly what I did wankstain, go back there and read what both the FBI and a forensics team looked for but didn't find: mass graves. You can't even be bothered to read and then you whine "you have no sources!!!" Nincompoop.

Do I give a fuck about the FBI? They couldn't even figure out that hostile Arab men in US flight schools not wanting to bother to land might mean a big terror attack might be coming...

And their forensics' has sucked ass historically. But even so, this proves nothing. Again, your just an intellectually flaccid dope going off a glib statement by an aging "journalist pol" with a topic that was only a half-truth...

The fact is that there were mass graves found with several thousand victims of extrajudicial executions and small scale massacres...

If this is such an "official lie," then maybe you can explain a point you've completely dodged this whole time: Why did the entire ethnic Albanian population of Kosovars flee to Albania? Because the fucking IJA was being nice to them you silly fuck?

Posturing, you've said it exactly. Describes your own posts here. You're an intellectual lightweight that simply sits there and deflects every argument thrown at him without any real counter argument and you so desperately try and project that onto me. You're a fail.

Ooooh! I know you are but what am I?

I've been a proud unamerican Pilger-ite since 9/11. He attacks people on the left too and I've seen these propaganda pieces before.

That's because he's a fascist-sympathizer...

[Seshmeister]

Because all you know is the documentaries you watch there's no point in my telling you that in some respects I can have a better standard of living in India than in Scotland. Your beloved media makes a point of showing only the slums (why not a documentary focussed on trailer parks and ghettos?) when they only occupy a part of the big cities and India's a huge country. Yes, the roads are bad and a sewage system is virtually non-existant, but in contrast, houses are generally bigger, most of them have car porches (a rarity in Scotland apparently) and balconies (virtually non-existant here). There's those clunky cars that you associate with India - they started to disppear almost overnight in the late 90s and they generally have better taste and money to buy better cars than the Peugeots and Vauxhalls people buy here. I've seen many brand new sports cars on the road. They're not "pampered beneficiaries", people do manage to make money despite your assumptions. You buy into the "a dollar a day" garbage when even those people clearly have more purchasing people than their US counterparts.

I haven't been following this nonsense but that is some funny shit. :D

"I'm so sorry your rickshaw burst a tire on the way here but feel free to shit in a box in the corner before we give you the grand tour of our porch. It's going to blow you away..."

Hahahahahaha

Fucking idiot.

[binnie]

"Her name is Rio and she dances on the sand............."

[Andy Taylor]

I haven't been following this nonsense but that is some funny shit. :D

"I'm so sorry your rickshaw burst a tire on the way here but feel free to shit in a box in the corner before we give you the grand tour of our porch. It's going to blow you away..."

Hahahahahaha

Fucking idiot.

You're free to believe what you want, but I have lived in both countries and know what I'm talking about.

[Seshmeister]

Hey if any of us went and lived in a third world country we could live like kings for a while on the money we earned in the first world.

That doesn't mean the country has a better standard of living - quite the reverse.

[Andy Taylor]

True.

I just meant to say many people do make money in India itself. There's so many people with their own business as you might have noticed.

[hideyoursheep]

You say businesses...

I say street vendors...

[Andy Taylor]

Chip on your shoulder haven't you?

[hideyoursheep]

Chip on your shoulder haven't you?

Am I lying?

[Seshmeister]

India is going nowhere while it still uses an ancient caste system to decide who deals with which support call...

[Andy Taylor]

You don't know what you're talking about really. And as if Britain isn't a class based society. You can also kid yourself into thinking this is a first world country. Compared to some middle eastern cities this would be a second world country.

And one day India along with China are going to be one of the countries to militarise space so you better start thinking about dealing with that. Wait, Scotland doesn't have a space program does it? It would have been interesting to see what Scotland would have done about the banking crisis if it were independent. Basically it's got oil off Aberdeen and that's about it.