Court Hears Second Amendment Debate On City Ban

[Blackflag]

How can other countries have guns but not have an equal proportion of gun related deaths/injuries per capita.

Good point. That's the point I was driving at earlier. People compare two disparate places - one with guns and one without - and show that one has four times as many gun deaths.

But you can also look at two places in the U.S. - say D.C. and Nebraska - and see a difference in the per capita number of gun deaths.

Or you can also look at two countries that both allow guns, and see a difference in the number of per capita gun deaths.

Some places just raise their kids such that they're ok with killing. That's the root cause. The people who want to ignore that root cause are the same people who don't like to deal with personal responsibility.

[Seshmeister]

I firmly believe that even if you could wave a magic wand and take all the guns away in America we'd just see a rise in stabbings and beatings. Is it poverty that breeds this violence? Having no hope of any type of future except crime and an early death because that's the culture you grew up in. Burying 5 of your friends before you're even 16 years old, so life to you is meaningless because you'll either end up in prison or dead before you reach 20.

Why the disparity?

It's not poverty that causes violence it's the difference in wealth. Countries like the US or UK where you huge disparities between the rich and power are the ones with the most crime.

Polarised societies are the problem.

[kwame k]

That's the point I was driving at earlier. People compare two disparate places - one with guns and one without - and show that one has four times as many gun deaths.

But you can look at two places in the U.S. - say D.C. and Nebraska - and see a difference in the per capita number of gun deaths.

Or you can look at two countries that both allow guns, and see a difference in the number of per capita gun deaths.

Some places just raise their kids such that they're ok with killing. That's the root cause. The people who want to ignore that root cause are the same people who don't like to deal with personal responsibility.

But that argument flies out the window when you look at some of the smaller towns like Columbine......

Sure, you can say that there are more deaths per capita in Rwanda or Darfur but it doesn't get you any closer to why we as a non-occupied, no wars in our country.... our population has more violent crimes.

Yes, LA and neighborhoods where there is abject poverty have huge crime rates. Detroit is usually number one and it's population has declined by at least 500,000 over the last 30 years, so purely population isn't the cause.

You can say that I was raised right and that would be true. You can say that growing up in a small town, raised with small town values had a huge impact on why there was no violent crime. Yet violence in small towns continues to rise.

I do think if we addressed the huge problems in the inner cities and gave kids and parents a better education or a shot at the American Dream we'd have fewer violent crimes. Like Zappa said about drug abuse, if you give people a better reality they wouldn't want to escape it.

I'm not sure what the answer is......if regulating and restricting guns to people who have an actual need for them was the answer, I'm all for it. Yet, in this country I don't see that as the answer because we as a nation will find illegal means to get what we want. We always have.

Really, I have no problem if they made it more expensive and had you go through more hoops to get your hunting license and to purchase guns but I still don't think that will solve anything.

[kwame k]

It's not poverty that causes violence it's the difference in wealth. Countries like the US or UK where you huge disparities between the rich and power are the ones with the most crime.

Polarised societies are the problem.

Possibly and as I just posted. If you give people a shot at the American Dream and a better education, violent crimes may drop.

[LoungeMachine]

BF's theory also doesnt account for all of the accidental gun death [many involving children]

I'm not against responsible gun ownership, and for the life of me I can't fathom why gun "enthusiests" are fo afraid of some regulations preventing unsafe storage, limiting WHO [the mentally unstable, violent ex felons, etc] is allowed to own them ,etc....

The Gun Lobby has fought HARD against the most basic safeguards, with the weakest arguments.

The 2nd Amendment only being most obvious.

We're a violent society who loves wars, death penalties, and weapons, and it is run by lobbyists hell bent on selling FEAR to John Q. Public



Get a gun before an illegal immigrant breaks into your house, and hang onto that gun tight or else the Government will take it away....

[kwame k]

BF's theory also doesnt account for all of the accidental gun death [many involving children]

I'm not against responsible gun ownership, and for the life of me I can't fathom why gun "enthusiests" are fo afraid of some regulations preventing unsafe storage, limiting WHO [the mentally unstable, violent ex felons, etc] is allowed to own them ,etc....

The Gun Lobby has fought HARD against the most basic safeguards, with the weakest arguments.

The 2nd Amendment only being most obvious.

We're a violent society who loves wars, death penalties, and weapons, and it is run by lobbyists hell bent on selling FEAR to John Q. Public



Get a gun before an illegal immigrant breaks into your house, and hang onto that gun tight or else the Government will take it away....

Anyone who inadvertently let's a child get their hands on a gun should be tried for murder, attempted murder or reckless endangerment, whatever the case may be and mandatory imprisonment, period.

There's no excuse for it but having said that......we were taught gun safety at an early age 6 or 7 maybe. We had no illusions about what a gun could do. We knew that a gun could kill and what that meant at a very young age. There was no....we saw Bugs Bunny do it among the kids I grew up with.

My parents owned a store at a time when the meat and seasonal produce was still grown locally. I knew what shooting a gun at an animal would do to it because I'd see stacks of dead deer in the back room of our store waiting to be processed. Shit, I start processing deer so young I can't remember never not doing it or when I was actually taught to do it. Had to be around 6 or 7.

My friend's parents were the ones growing the produce or livestock, so we all knew what killing was and it wasn't a big deal. Real guns weren't toys and no one I was around ever even treated an unloaded gun carelessly. If you were around an adult or my friends and being careless with a gun, you'd get your ass kicked because you were not only endangering your life but quite possibly ours.

As far as this culture of fear that has been shoved down our throats....they scare you into buying a gun and then scare you into believing they'll take the gun that they told you you needed in the first place. I agree, it makes no sense

I also agree that having a background check and a waiting period is the responsible thing to do and not everyone has the right to own a gun, period.

These fucking loopholes at trade shows have got to stop....if these criminals are bribing people without a record to buy them guns, then the punishment has to be in accordance with the crime committed by that gun. Sure, they can say the gun was stolen but they damn well better have the proof before the fact and if they haven't reported it stolen, they should be charged as an accessory. If it was stolen and it wasn't properly secured or stored they should be charge with neglect.

[Blackflag]

BF's theory

Now you want to make a serious argument? Fuck off and learn to spell enthusiast.

[Blackflag]

I also agree that having a background check and a waiting period is the responsible thing to do and not everyone has the right to own a gun, period.

Every state requires a background check. Every state denies ownership to certain people. Let's keep it real.

[kwame k]

Every state requires a background check. Every state denies ownership to certain people. Let's keep it real.

That's what I said.......

[Nickdfresh]

Vehicle registration is for government regulation, punishment and taxation of vehicle owners...

And for infrastructure upkeep and to fund the massively costly problems resulting from universal vehicle ownership...

Gun registration is similar and Obama has even proposed a firearm tax...

The federal government does not register nurses, mechanics, hazardous materials or even sexual predators, as you should already know...

The Federal gov't does register HAZMAT, and I never said they did register the above. A gov't does, however...

[sadaist]

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[Nickdfresh]

The cause is very important as there is a much larger picture to look at...

Or the disintegration is exaggerated, and it was never all that strong to begin with...

[Nickdfresh]

Ummm...

Hurricane Katrina comes to mind...

Specifically, how?

[Nickdfresh]

They have recently struck down laws aimed at "Disarming the public during times of martial law"

Another example of how gun registration would work in reverse. The people being disarmed would only be the legal owners that obeyed the law and exactly the one's that would be put at most risk.

Um, quite the opposite. In fact, law abiding people with firearms in crises such as Katrina are often de facto "deputized." The purest form of the Second Amendment actually...

[Nickdfresh]

....

FYI - Andy carried a loaded gun.

He was also a peace officer...