debunking the "it wasen't a plane that crashed into the pentagon"

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by lucky wilbury
and to be the bringer of bad news but a lot planes in the air don't have transponders on them because they are small planes.

Oh NOW not all planes have transponders?? Are you listening to yourself? Earlier it was the ONLY way for them to be picked up on radar, yet now not all planes have them?

Thanks for making my point for me. Those planes could have been located on radar alone, and should have been. But someone high up didn't want them to be found. That wasn't part of the plan...

[lucky wilbury]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Oh NOW not all planes have transponders?? Are you listening to yourself? Earlier it was the ONLY way for them to be picked up on radar, yet now not all planes have them?

Thanks for making my point for me. Those planes could have been located on radar alone, and should have been. But someone high up didn't want them to be found. That wasn't part of the plan...

you really are an idiot aren't you? to quote myself in this very thread:

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7595

now take into account that there are almost 4,800 planes in the air at any given moment over the us with the ability to find 2 of those with out their transponders on is nill. no chance zero. without their transponders on all the become is light aircrat ala a cesna. they would have spent half the time chasing down piper cubs and false radar hits that were flocks of birds rather then finding any plane

and from a later post:

do you even know what a transponder is? by your response i guess not. a transponder is a device on most aircraft that give the flt name,speed, altitude automatically. it's a tracking becon. most small planes don't have them they have to check in and identify themselves with air traffic control with they pass through radar coverage areas for airports. on 9-11 the planes transponders were shut off so on radar all they would appear as is a small non commercial plane. you would have had every fighter in the us military casing down every person who was flying their pipers and cesnas etc etc. radar cand't tell the difference between planes

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by lucky wilbury
radar cand't tell the difference between planes

Well...not civilian airport radar. There are radars that can identify different types of aircraft by their return without the use of a transponder. Of course you won't know what flight number it is or anything like that, but you can tell a 747 from a Cessna fairly easily. But like I said, it is not for civilian use.

As for the "missing" plane at the Pentagon and no wings, etc., I do believe that type of plane stores its fuel in the wings, and if the fuel exploded so did the wings. How much of the planes were left that crashed into the WTC? I don't remember seeing too much left.

[John Ashcroft]

OK, here it goes. Sorry I'm just now getting here, was away from my computer for a while.

Anyway, let's see... Keep it simple...

Due to Ronald Reagan's brilliance and courage, the cold war was won 8 months after he left office. The Soviet Union was gone. As well as the cold-war alert posture. Yeah, it held on for a while. Well through the Bush administration, but in about 1993 or 1994 (I forget which year, but it's one of the two) the United States Air Force, under General McPeak (Air Force Chief of Staff), a major re-alignment was undertaken. The Strategic Air Command (the command responsible for the overwhelming majority of our 24 hour alert posture) was disintigrated. The Tactical Air Command was disintigrated as well (another major command, also heavily involved in a rapid alert posture). They were essentially both reformed into what was named "Air Combat Command". The mission of ACC was redefined to incorporate elements from both SAC and TAC. But the alert posture was relaxed significantly (typically from a 10-30 minute response posture, to a 1-2 hour response).

Response time depended on the priority assigned to air assets. A plane like AWACS was given a "priority B asset" classification, giving us an alert posture of 2 hours response time. Planes like the RJ and even the new Naval E-6 were given a priority A classification, with a response time from 30 minutes to 1 hour (depending on current threatcon level). The reason these planes were given a higher priority is because they double as command platforms should the shit really hit the fan, and ground command is knocked out. However, it was still a much more relaxed posture than the previous SAC and TAC alerts postures (again, as quick as 10 minutes response).

Also, after the realignment, 24 hour alerts became a thing of the past. Alert duty was done at random (to save money of course), on an almost arbitrary schedule. Flying hour programs, fuel conservation programs, and quarterly requirements now drove pretty much every asset's alert posture. I've spent significant time in an alert facility, both under TAC and the newer ACC. I watched the changes unfold firsthand. The fighter community was affected in exactly the same way.

So there's the answer to your alert posture questions.

So lets pretend for a minute that there happened to be F-16s on a 10 minute alert posture on 9/11 (of course it didn't happen, but lets enter the fun, dream world of liberalism). Let's say they took off in 10 minute of the first attack. Guess what? There were ABSOLUTELY NO AWACS OR HAWKEYES IN THE AREA AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK!!!! I know this as a fact. There were 2 AWACS operating in the center of the country on training missions that day, and they were immediatly diverted. However, transit time at full fucking throttle from Texas to NY is about 3 1/2 hours, with one hell of a tail wind! (I have two good friends that were airborne during the event). There were no Hawkeyes at all, as they perform a majority of their operations practicing carrier defense. So, with no long range radar to find the hijacked airliners, there is about a snowball's chance in hell that a fighter will find a single radar-only track using it's aquisition radar. There's a whole lotta air volume to look through, let alone the confusion factor of that particular day.

All of the information I'm sharing is knowledge I have from either myself and my experience, or from 1st hand accounts of military people who were airborne during the attacks of 9/11. Obviously, there's alot more that happened that day, but I'm naturally not a liberty to share. I know that sounds a bit hokey, but it's a fact. There were good men and women in the air that day (like every other). If they could've prevented even one of the attacks they would've. You're bullshit conspiracy theories don't only defame the President, they slander the people who have dedicated their lives protecting your right to be a jackass. I promise you that if you ever spouted this bullshit to their faces, you'd walk away missing some teeth (and that's just from the chicks). You don't have the slightest clue about national defense, that much is clear. What is amazing is that you're unwilling to listen.

[Big Train]

Keeyth ,

It's YOUR theory, not mine. I am merely asking you to answer the question. Where is the paper trail which will prove the profiteering? If not, it's a baseless accusation. You will say that is naive, but it isn't like it is a hard thing to do. If other countries hate us so much, which is more than likely where said lot is stashed (I'd start somewhere in Sweden), they would surely want to drop a dime and catch George with his pants down. No?

[Keeyth]

Have a good weekend folks, I'll be back to debate on Monday!

[ELVIS]

Take some truth with you...

[lucky wilbury]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
OK, here it goes. Sorry I'm just now getting here, was away from my computer for a while.

Anyway, let's see... Keep it simple...

Due to Ronald Reagan's brilliance and courage, the cold war was won 8 months after he left office. The Soviet Union was gone. As well as the cold-war alert posture. Yeah, it held on for a while. Well through the Bush administration, but in about 1993 or 1994 (I forget which year, but it's one of the two) the United States Air Force, under General McPeak (Air Force Chief of Staff), a major re-alignment was undertaken. The Strategic Air Command (the command responsible for the overwhelming majority of our 24 hour alert posture) was disintigrated. The Tactical Air Command was disintigrated as well (another major command, also heavily involved in a rapid alert posture). They were essentially both reformed into what was named "Air Combat Command". The mission of ACC was redefined to incorporate elements from both SAC and TAC. But the alert posture was relaxed significantly (typically from a 10-30 minute response posture, to a 1-2 hour response).

Response time depended on the priority assigned to air assets. A plane like AWACS was given a "priority B asset" classification, giving us an alert posture of 2 hours response time. Planes like the RJ and even the new Naval E-6 were given a priority A classification, with a response time from 30 minutes to 1 hour (depending on current threatcon level). The reason these planes were given a higher priority is because they double as command platforms should the shit really hit the fan, and ground command is knocked out. However, it was still a much more relaxed posture than the previous SAC and TAC alerts postures (again, as quick as 10 minutes response).

Also, after the realignment, 24 hour alerts became a thing of the past. Alert duty was done at random (to save money of course), on an almost arbitrary schedule. Flying hour programs, fuel conservation programs, and quarterly requirements now drove pretty much every asset's alert posture. I've spent significant time in an alert facility, both under TAC and the newer ACC. I watched the changes unfold firsthand. The fighter community was affected in exactly the same way.

So there's the answer to your alert posture questions.

So lets pretend for a minute that there happened to be F-16s on a 10 minute alert posture on 9/11 (of course it didn't happen, but lets enter the fun, dream world of liberalism). Let's say they took off in 10 minute of the first attack. Guess what? There were ABSOLUTELY NO AWACS OR HAWKEYES IN THE AREA AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK!!!! I know this as a fact. There were 2 AWACS operating in the center of the country on training missions that day, and they were immediatly diverted. However, transit time at full fucking throttle from Texas to NY is about 3 1/2 hours, with one hell of a tail wind! (I have two good friends that were airborne during the event). There were no Hawkeyes at all, as they perform a majority of their operations practicing carrier defense. So, with no long range radar to find the hijacked airliners, there is about a snowball's chance in hell that a fighter will find a single radar-only track using it's aquisition radar. There's a whole lotta air volume to look through, let alone the confusion factor of that particular day.

All of the information I'm sharing is knowledge I have from either myself and my experience, or from 1st hand accounts of military people who were airborne during the attacks of 9/11. Obviously, there's alot more that happened that day, but I'm naturally not a liberty to share. I know that sounds a bit hokey, but it's a fact. There were good men and women in the air that day (like every other). If they could've prevented even one of the attacks they would've. You're bullshit conspiracy theories don't only defame the President, they slander the people who have dedicated their lives protecting your right to be a jackass. I promise you that if you ever spouted this bullshit to their faces, you'd walk away missing some teeth (and that's just from the chicks). You don't have the slightest clue about national defense, that much is clear. What is amazing is that you're unwilling to listen.

right on!

[John Ashcroft]

It's Thursday. Safe to say he's been beaten?

I'll bet he still believes Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks, and still spouts that bullshit to all of his liberal friends.

[freak]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Thank you for making my point for me on the fuel. They could have easily of made it to the other two planes!

I don't give a rats ass about the transponders. Air traffic control could have picked them up on radar just from being a chunk of metal in the sky. What, do you work for the Bush propoganda campaign?

Yep, you got it son.

The plane that hit the Pentagon was actually forced to land by the air force. The passengers were executed and buried in a mass grave. The plane was cut up into itty-bitty pieces. These itty-bitty pieces were transported, along with several thousand gallons of aviation fuel to the Pentagon and were strewn about after the cruise missile hit - In broad daylight, yet.

The two planes that hit the twin towers were just a coincidence and a lucky one at that.

That people like you actually exist defies belief.

It's almost as if there's a variant of Downs Syndrome that effects common sense.

[FORD]

Originally posted by freak


It's almost as if there's a variant of Downs Syndrome that effects common sense.[/i]

There is. And it's an airborne virus that the BCE spread over the "red" states, where people believe FAUX News.

[freak]

Originally posted by FORD
There is. And it's an airborne virus that the BCE spread over the "red" states, where people believe FAUX News.

Come clean with me Ford.

You guys are in some sort of cult aren't you?

If so, I'm worried for you, man. Get outta there before Barbera Streisand and Tim Robbins start dolling out the KoolAid.

[ELVIS]

Why didn't they spread it everywhere ??

You sure could use some...

BTW.. I live in a blue state...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by freak
Come clean with me Ford.

You guys are in some sort of cult aren't you?

Cult ??

Give FORD some credit!

he's a one man team...

Allbeit with split personalities...:D

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
It's Thursday. Safe to say he's been beaten?

I'll bet he still believes Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks, and still spouts that bullshit to all of his liberal friends.

Beaten? Never. You'll see what beaten means when you look at GW Bush after this November... ...that is if there is any sanity left in America...

and yes, I do believe Bush had a great deal to do with the 9-11 attacks, and the proof and truth will come out soon enough. I also think someone got to the 9-11 commision and someone got paid, because after all that work, now they're not going to 'blame' any one person. what a load of obvious tampered-with bullshit. They know who was behind it, but money talks. It WILL all still come out though, and we are closer than you think to the time when even you JA, will have to admit you've been following a fraud as a president.