9/11 - What do you think?

[Blaze]

dude, you REALLY need to start thinking.

a) NOBODY but the truthers mention the fire as possibly hot enough to MELT steel. that's because that's NOT what the explanation is.

b) the impact sites took out a number of the exterior support beams. this weakened the ability of the hit floor to hold up the mass of the above floors. this is a FACT. anybody who disagrees on this is lost to reality.

c) fire DOES weaken steel. FACT. how much this particular fire weakened these particular steel supports may be debated. but that increasing heat leads to an increasing weakenss of steel is beyond debate.

d) therefore, under the right combination of circumstances - 1) number of beams destroyed; 2) heat, proximity and duration of fire; and 3) mass above the weakened beams, it is a FACT that given the right combination of these, a WTC-like collapse is possible. anybody who disagrees with this is, as sesh mentioned, arguing from a religous-like fervor, NOT science or fact.

now, i'll give you that there are unknown variables in the story. exactly how many beams were destroyed? we have a good estimate, but don't know exactly. exactly how hot did the fire get? again, we know how hot it should burn, but don't know 100%. exactly how close was the fire to exactly how many beams? again, we have a range of possibilities, but don't know for certain. now, many, many engineers have said that given the most likely values for those variables, the collapse was by far the most likely explanation.

however, if somebody wants to argue a different set of variables, and say that they believe the collapse story is LESS LIKELY, then they're welcome to do so. (though, up to now, the data does not show that).

i'm not asking anybody to believe with 100% certainty that the WTC collapse happened exactly as the widely accepted story goes. i'm simply saying that if anybody is 100% certain that story was IMPOSSIBLE then they are demonstrating either an omnipotent knowledge of how the exact situation in the impact zone was different than expected, a lack of understanding of physics and chemistry, or a self interest in lying.

Actually, there was "melting" of steel in the debris.

Defense one:

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

Defense two:

http://www.takeourworldback.com/smokinggun.htm

It is logical that putting a heavy plane on a building would cause it to become easier to fall.

What caught my attention to begin with was the quality of dissemination and production of the Loose Change.
There are a limited number of individuals or "groups" with the criminal knowledge on par with Enron level cohorts.
That fact leads to some, though limited, credibility to the film.

Some crimes are never solved. Some crimes are never discovered.
At the end of the day that has to be accepted. What can be done is to cull the causation, which would be corruption.

Again why crime is committed:
1. There is a means.
2. There is a motive.
3. There is justification (or moral loss).

[Blaze]

No question

But not over some evil plan to kill millions, no it was just purely over ineptness in my eyes.

Millions? I thought only a couple thousand died. Are you including the subsequent war also?

[Unchainme]

The BCE is ultimately responsible no matter what story you believe. It was Poppy's CIA who created "Al Qaeda" as a tool against the Commies in Afghanistan.

Up to this point you had me.

[Unchainme]

Millions? I thought only a couple thousand died. Are you including the subsequent war also?

yes

[Blaze]

Up to this point you had me.

That part is actually somewhat true. What really angered the rednecks holy roller thumpers in Afghanistan was the fact they were tricked of sort or left holding the bag. USSR had gone in and developed a whole bunch of good stuff (roads, schools, hospitals, and whatnot) They were not so keen on the redneck holy roller thumping fundies, That is when Charlie picked them up and said. "You doon't say! Lord O'gracious! Look how we can help you boys!"

[FORD]

Up to this point you had me.

Seriously? You didn't know about the Afghan resistance to the Russians being CIA tools?

[kwame k]

Seriously? You didn't know about the Afghan resistance to the Russians being CIA tools?

What about giving Iraq WMD's in the 80's.......

[Seshmeister]

Seriously? You didn't know about the Afghan resistance to the Russians being CIA tools?

That's fine and true in that the CIA funded them completely.

But your next sentence is some crazy crap about the CIA/BCE training them in Florida.

They paid a flight school a bunch of money to train themselves using credit cards. The people at that school have been extensively interviewed by journalists.

Apart from the no evidence of CIA why would they want/need the CIA to do the training?

Stop undermining yourself with the crazy stuff.

[Seshmeister]

I'm spending all of 9/11/11 golfing. I'm not going to watch any television or listen to the radio. I'm just going to have fun for myself to honor the day.

As the TV networks fill up with 9-11 stuff for a week I think it's worth remembering why tomorrow is such a particularly important day to commemorate it.

The reason that tomorrow is special is that it takes the Earth 365.25 days to go around the Sun and because we have 10 fingers.

[Unchainme]

Seriously? You didn't know about the Afghan resistance to the Russians being CIA tools?

No, that I got, and I agree with whole-heart-idly.

I disagree with the whole "Flight school funded by the bce" thing.

[Unchainme]

Also, I believe that Rumsfield is lying through his teeth right here.

I guarantee the US funded Iraq in some capacity in the Iran-Iraq war, trying to payback the Iranians for 1979, which in part was caused by the aforementioned CIA pushing the Shah on those people

The US has been pretty fucked in terms of foreign relations for longer than I thought.

Edit: May I add that the US funding the Afghani's is pretty common knowledge at this point. Even my dad who's a Limbaugh/Hannity follower knows it, and admits it was poorly handled

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

[Seshmeister]

Thanks, never saw his reaction to the video before.

It's a pity lie detectors don't work because it would be interesting to see how many he made there...

[Seshmeister]

That said a lot of this comes down to whether you believe

a) They are criminal masterminds, evil geniuses controlling the world.
b) A bunch of fairly average cunts who fuck up a lot but are in privileged positions and are trying to push forward their own agenda which is to maintain their own power reactively .
c) Completely fucking stupid

e.g.

<embed id=VideoPlayback src=http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-4697166259112889282&hl=en&fs=true style=width:400px;height:326px allowFullScreen=true allowScriptAccess=always type=application/x-shockwave-flash> </embed>

I'm convinced it's (b)

They went into Afghanistan waving money around(US taxpayers money), they got told a bunch of stories by people who took the money off them and laughed their asses off. The money matters less though than the poor bastards that got sold to Guantanamo.

[FORD]

That's fine and true in that the CIA funded them completely.

But your next sentence is some crazy crap about the CIA/BCE training them in Florida.

They paid a flight school a bunch of money to train themselves using credit cards. The people at that school have been extensively interviewed by journalists.

Apart from the no evidence of CIA why would they want/need the CIA to do the training?

Stop undermining yourself with the crazy stuff.

No, that I got, and I agree with whole-heart-idly.

I disagree with the whole "Flight school funded by the bce" thing.

Google the names "Wally Hilliard" and "Rudi Dekkers" - these are the two BCE/CIA operatives who ran the Florida flight school.

Or you can just start reading here, though this article is kinda long, and has some irrelevant info, like Atta's dick size and the fact that he was a Beastie Boys fan. (A fundie Saudi Arab, fan of a Jewish rap group? Who knew??)

http://www.naderlibrary.com/911.welcometoterrorlandhop11.htm

[Seshmeister]

The guy who owned the flight school being a colorful character and maybe leasing a plane from his fleet to the CIA at some point isn't any way near strong enough evidence to say that the CIA trained them.

It's like saying they were trained by the evangelical Christians...

http://www.spacekb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/astronomy/11084/9-11-The-Evangelical-Christian-Connection